Accessory Rails, French Toast and You

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Cheesewhiz

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There have been a few posts lately about accessory rails on pistols, my opinion has been up and down on this subject. Most new model guns look and function fine with them but only a few of the older gun designs adapt well to the addition of one.

I have quite a few pistols that have rails on them but I don't mount lights or lasers on them (I have one gun with a laser but it has a laser grip, a CZ P-01).

The heavier weight of the rail on the CZ SP-01 (pictured below right) helps a lot with muzzle flip during rapid fire, in comparision with a CZ 75B and makes it one of the best production guns for doing this, so in this case I see it as a positive

There are some guns that IMO should not have a rail incorporated into it and a fine example of that is the 1911, the added weight will not be under the muzzle, so I see no functional benefit and it just looks plain ugly on that great gun.

I might just be an almost old fuddy duddy but what are your opinions?

new1911andafav.jpg
 

Anthony Williams

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:wink: Well comin' from this ol' "Fuddy Duddy" :D I feel more qualified to talk about French Toast than I do about Light Rails on Handguns. But since you've asked, I have never been a fan of light rails on guns for the simple reason that I feel a light rail?light gives one's position away and you become just as much a target as your advidsary. Now if you'll excuse me (chomp & burp) my French Toast is getting cold. :wink:
 

Snake45

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I don't own a pistol with a knick-knack shelf on it, and I don't anticipate ever owning a pistol with a knick-knack shelf on it.
 

revhigh

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Cheesewhiz":m1vxvord said:
There are some guns that IMO should not have a rail incorporated into it and a fine example of that is the 1911.

Agreed. Of all my autos, only the G20 has a rail, and it only has that because it came with it. I'd never use it for anything.

REV
 

Fishslayer

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Anthony Williams":kknrumlt said:
But since you've asked, I have never been a fan of light rails on guns for the simple reason that I feel a light rail?light gives one's position away and you become just as much a target as your advidsary.

Always wondered about that. Kinda like tracers, seems it would work both ways...
 

Cheesewhiz

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Anthony Williams":10vh4e5z said:
That's one hell of a nice lookin' 1911 pictured, it looks like a "Springer Mil-Spec" with a custom grip safety and hammer.

Anthony, nice eye, it is a Springer Mil-Spec, if you had seen it a week ago you wouldn't have thought it looked so good, it had a "someone pimped my ride" look about it. I ordered a new Mil-Spec about two months back from my favorite LGS, it still isn't in yet but at that same LGS about a week ago, I spotted this one in the used pistol counter. It is now my project gun and I'm just trying to get it to a point were I can see what it needs and what I want to give it. I haven't had a 1911 for a long time, so this may be some new fun for me.
 

MountainGator

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Anthony Williams":beismsed said:
I have never been a fan of light rails on guns for the simple reason that I feel a light rail?light gives one's position away and you become just as much a target as your advidsary.

I really don't want to pull the trigger on someone without having a very positive ID, so in a HD situation I figure you have to illuminate the target sooner or later. I want both of my hands on my pistol, so I don't want a hand held light. The XTI PROCYON has a 125+ lumen output and can strobe. That level will actually cause pain, and the strobe is very disorienting. Hit someone with that and unless they are on drugs, they will close their eyes. They may be shooting, but the'll probably be shooting blind. jmho.
 
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The potential problem I see with that Gator is you are pointing the pistol at 'things' and especially a person before you have acquired and identified your target. Yes, I know it's a 'catch 22' but I know for a fact that when I'm scared sh%$&ess and the adrenaline is flowing the 10lb trigger pull on my P95 is going to seem light as a feather. I also know that when this is going on you sometimes see things different.... I've had it happen... a person opens the door and runs in the room to scare you as a joke and you don't even recognize them.... and they are yout best friend you've known all your life...

And tkarter makes a good point, that's how I shoot or at least practice with my KP95 ... I don't even use the sights.... which is a good thing.. I tried to kit a yellow 12"x16" No trespassing sign from about 75ft the other night.... it was so dark that's all I could see, that and the sights just slightly.... I think I came within 2ft of hitting it..
 

MountainGator

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blume357":3lcr5rwc said:
The potential problem I see with that Gator is you are pointing the pistol at 'things' and especially a person before you have acquired and identified your target. Yes, I know it's a 'catch 22' but I know for a fact that when I'm scared sh%$&ess and the adrenaline is flowing the 10lb trigger pull on my P95 is going to seem light as a feather. I also know that when this is going on you sometimes see things different.... I've had it happen... a person opens the door and runs in the room to scare you as a joke and you don't even recognize them.... and they are yout best friend you've known all your life...

And tkarter makes a good point, that's how I shoot or at least practice with my KP95 ... I don't even use the sights.... which is a good thing.. I tried to kit a yellow 12"x16" No trespassing sign from about 75ft the other night.... it was so dark that's all I could see, that and the sights just slightly.... I think I came within 2ft of hitting it..

You are cerrtainly right on the 'catch 22' 357, as well as how some can react under periods of stress and surprise. But to try to further clairify, while any good tactical light has a narrow beam, it is not a laser, and you can adequately illuminate the target with the weapons aimpoint not actually "on target". So again (imho) I feel that there is a "reasonable" technique that can be employed to get a 'reasonable' ID in low-light situations. Point (aim) 2 ft. in front of, or 2 ft. to the side of the potential threat. You will still get the incapaciting effects of the 125 lumen strobe and you have the opportunity to get a positive ID.

Now it sounds like we both use threat focused point n' shoot techniques for TA (yep tk, heard of it and learnt it 39 years ago. The only time that I ever used the sights on my 1911 or my M-16 were at the range - not in fire fights). So I wonder that even if one had a light (say in the weak-side hand) if we wouldn't instinctively point the light and the pistol "together" in that high stress, state of confusion situation?

We're still left with the conundrum of how to get positive ID in low-light situations. [you knew that the sign was there and that it was a sign (vice the origional Bill of Rights), and you ASSUMED that no one was standing 2 feet from it]. Short of an IR illuminator & sensor / FLIR / or some other Night Vision device, I'm left with white light. So you either turn (whatever your light source is) on, and expose your position, or you "Blow Grandma Away" (or your neighbor) because you didn't make a positive ID.

...jmho, ymmv,
StaySafe
 

tkarter

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How about a loud yell calling for identification before you shoot?

Granny is going to say its me granny.


Anyone with any sense will answer up when they think they are about to be shot.

Room clearing might be a different thing but that is what LEO are for.

tk
 

MountainGator

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tkarter":3pk3lp5i said:
How about a loud yell calling for identification before you shoot?

Granny is going to say its me granny.


Anyone with any sense will answer up when they think they are about to be shot.

Room clearing might be a different thing but that is what LEO are for.

tk
12/27 my 90 year-old Aunt came home from an casino outing. "A Neighbor Friend of hers" who had a key to the house was hiding in a closet 'three sheets to the wind'. Auntie doesn't own a firearm, but when she heard noises comming from the closet, she went and got the biggest 'fry pan' she had, and then called out "Who's in there?" There was no responce. Terrified, she somehow found the courage to open the door to the closet, and there was her friend sitting there sobbing, unable to respond.

Now If anyone is hiding a closet in MY house (wasted or not) there is a real good chance that they ARE going to get a loaded firearm pointed at them, but I just want to make sure that it is not a neighbor friend that can not respond before I pull the trigger.
 

MountainGator

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Not sure what your response means there tk, but let me say this... I choose to live in rural Montana, and to paraphrase a current saying, "There's a gun in my house because there is not a CCSD camped out in the back 40." I suspect that if I ever did call 911, they'd ask if I ran out of ammo and then tell me the Deputy should be there with the half-hour. The time I spend in Florida is also "out in the county", though the response time is (should be) less.

In the past, when I suspected someone in the house I have always handled it myself. If I had a situation where there were noises coming from a closet, yes, the combat command voice would come into full usage - even though that gives away my surprise tactical advantage, and yes, the 9mm or the .357 or the shotgun, or whatever is going to be pointed at the closet door, and will remain there until the situation is resolved.

If I was awakened, and suspected someone in the house, I really don't think I would lock myself in the bedroom and wait for the Deputy (to come and bust down the front door). If I'm leaving the BR (to unlock the door), I might as well do it sooner than later, so I'll have to clear at least part of the house no matter what. To do that, I'm going to be moving fairly slowly, listening before I move much. If I hear one (unusual) sound, I have the tactical advantage, and if I don't hear anything I'm not going to give away my advantage by shouting out. How long will I wait? Don't know, the VC were very patient, 10 min. was not unusual for them, but that's a lot for a Westerner. Hopefully I can at least get to the door by the time CCSO arrives.

But what If I do hear something? Simultaneously with a 125 lumen strobe, you'll get the combat command voice telling the intruder to drop their weapon and lay down on the floor. If the intruder still has eyes open, might see my 9mm pointed in their general direction. If I can determine that it is "granny" or the neighbor, then the situation is resolved. OTOH if it's an unknown intruder then how the situation plays out will depend on how the intruder responds to my commands.

Others may choose to handle the situation differently, and that's their choice.

StaySafe
 

tkarter

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For the most part my defense of home and self have no room for a gun mounted light.

Given my household experience there will be plenty of light already on. Dark houses are the houses bad people show up at.

Not meaning it can't happen I just choose to lay my routine a little different.

Maybe I misunderstood the value of gun mounted light for sighting purposes.

We all do what we feel we must.

I have a rail on my P95 I just don't notice it.

I have my LED light that is always close and if needed will be called upon.


Cheezewhiz didn't post a french toast recipe. :D

I enjoy intelligent discussion of most any kind.

tk
 

Yosemite Sam

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I think rails on carry guns are useless. On HD guns they're only slightly less useless, and only if you've trained for the use of a weapon mounted accessory. In general I think they're a fad to appeal to the Tactical Ted/Mall Ninja crowd, as is just about everything else in firearms marketing today.

But I admit I also dislike them aesthetically. Since I have no use for them I'd rather not have them upsetting what could be the graceful lines of my gun.

For instance, this is about the height of absurdity:

PPS.jpg


A 1" long rail on what is basically a backup/pocket pistol. But it's all the rage, and everybody needs them. Really! Next, let's screw up a perfectly good 1911 with them! Or a Sig! Oh wait, we already did that...

-- Sam

P.S. I like my French Toast pretty generic, too... :)
 
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While I can understand the handiness of being able to keep both hands on the gun and identify potential targets easier, I just can't get beyond the "don't point a gun at something you're not willing to destroy" caution. Adrenalin is a powerful thing.

JMHO

:?
 

tkarter

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My P95 DPR points natural. I am not sure if it is the rail or not that makes it so. I do know I like it when I have to shoot under pressure. Not the rail the gun. It is perfectly balanced for my shooting.

tk
 

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