9mm P series magazine evolution?

[Al James]

Im trying to figure out what mags came with what 9mm P series model. Ive seen several different types of mags with different pistols. The early mags were blued with numbered backs and metal floorplates. Then I think they lost there #'s and got witness holes. Then they went to blued bodies/plastic base plates. Then they went to SS bodies/plastic base plates.

Anyone have any reference or knowledge on when the design changes were made? Ideas?

 

[Tallinthesaddle]

I hope someone answers this! The mags for my P85 sure look like they will fit my new P89 which will also fit a P95.

 

[Al James]

Ive asked this ? before and didnt get much response. I hope that some one in the know will chime in. I figured it would be referenced to in one of these Ruger books or something. We'll see!

 

[COFFEE POT]

The original P85 mags did indeed have numbers and witness holes on the back as well as the steel floorplate. However, due to the weld seam on the back it made tha magazines more expensive to produce, so the markings were dropped and the witness holes moved to the sides. When the magazine was raised .040" during the development of the P89 to give a more inline feeding, many of the original magazines would bottom out on the frame before locking in place so the magazine shell had to be lengthened. It was at this point that the change was made to the plastic floorplate as they were easier to assemble/disassemble and were cheaper to produce. They also gave a quick ID as to the difference between the two mags. Many of the old mags may fit/lock into newer guns but will sit lower and may give feeding problems with some bullet shapes. The newer mags should fit the older guns, but may hit the bottom of the slide and/or the old blade type ejector. A high percentage of the mags will fit and function in either gun, but do a lot of testing if the gun is to be used for SD. When the stock of the old style magazine shells ran out, the replacement mags for the old guns went to the plastic floorplate and the shape of the locking hole was changed to be a visual indicator of the old style. Then came the assault weapons law and both mags were modified to hold only 10 rds, except for those for L.E. use and those mags were marked on the front " for export or L.E. use only". Because the law was to be implemented in a short time frame, the original 10 rd mags were merely 15 rd mags cut off, the spring shortened and a quick, long plastic floorplate was inserted and pinned in place. Later the shell was modified to accept a slip-in floorplate when the time was available to make new molds and tooling. When the law expired, they went back to the 15 rd mags, except to those state which continued to limit the mag capacity to 10 rds. The original tooling used to make the shells wasn't capable of making a stainless steel shell so all were blued. When that tooling wore out, the new tooling was made to be capable of making either the blued or stainless shells.

That's what it was when I retired 2-1/2 years ago. Any changes since then I'm unable to tell you as I don't know what is being done today.

I hope this helps clear up a little of the confusion.

 

[Al James]

Thanks for the info Coffee! I have all the types and they all work in every P I own except my P89. It only works properly with newer plastic base mags. My whole reason for even needing to know this stuff is that I own a few P's and have bought quite a few extra mags and noticed alot of differences in factory mags. In an attempt to use proper generation mags in the right pistol, ya know. OCD moment perhaps too. :wink:

 

[COFFEE POT]

All the blued mags were made on the same tooling. However, that tooling was modified a number of times over the years. When the law was in place limiting the capacity to 10 rds, the tooling was modified again to have interchangable inserts so it could stamp out and form either the 10 or 15 rd mag shells. You will find it very difficult to find the proper generation mag for your gun as the magazines were mixed throughout the P89 production. In any given year, there may have been several different configuration mags shipped with the P89s, depending on what was in stock. The correct mag for your P89 is the P-18 (15 rd) or the P-18/10 (10 rd) depending on when and/or where it was originally shipped. The P-18 mags were made in various configurations depending on the most current tooling update. I don't know of any way you could tie the production year of the gun to the mag configuration shipped with it with any certainty. You can only get somewhat close in that if your P89 is an early gun, then the early P-18 mag is probably the correct generation for it. If it's a new gun, then the current production mags would be closer. The P89 was made for many years with many transparent mag changes along the way. When a mag was changed, that doesn't mean that all the guns from that point on had them. There were often many thousands of the previous change in stock and they may or may not have been used up first. As far as they were concerned, a P-18 mag was a P-18 mag despite it's configuration as they were all interchangable.

Sorry, but that's about the best I can do for you.

 

[Al James]

Based on Coffee Pots info heres the order. Kinda. Maybe. Lol
Left to right:
1. Blue, #'ed back, steel floorplate.
2. Blue, no #'s, witness holes, steel floorplate.
3. Blue, no #'s, witness holes, plastic floorplate, grooved side, LE marked.
4. Blue, no #'s, witness holes, plastic floorplate, grooved side.
5. SS, no #'s, witness holes, plastic floorplate, grooved side.

 

[COFFEE POT]

You're pretty close on those mags. The ribbed side came about with the P91 .40 cal and then incorporated into the 9mm as well as they were both stamped out on the same tooling with different inserts. As the mag shell wasn't quite wide enough to accomodate a true double stack for the .40, there were issues with loaded mags bulging and not dropping free and had to be pushed into place, so the rib was incorporated to both stiffen the sides and change the stacking angle. A true double stack actually allows some of the rounds in the mag to be loose and in the earlier non-ribbed mags, the 9mm ones would often have a rattle which the ribs eliminated. Also, the '9mm' marking wasn't added to the mags until the advent of the P91 .40 cal. The early 9mm mags did not have a caliber marking. The mags were very similar in appearance with the only difference being in the feed lips and follower configurations which were indistinguishable to the eye that they had to add the 9mm and .40 auto markings to the mags for identification purposes.

One mag you don't have there is the original P85 mag. It actually held 16 rds with very little effort. As the gun was marketed as having a 15 rd mag, the ATF made Ruger alter it so it was not possible to get 16 rds into it. Also, with 16 rds in it, the mag spring became overstressed. Only a very few of these mags were ever made and even less actually shipped as the alteration to 15 rds max was a quick and easy fix. But a few of the very early guns were shipped with these mags.

I'm not positive, but there may also have been a 9mm flat side plastic floor plate version, too. That was a transition era and there were a number of short-lived configurations out there. The more you get into this, the more it jogs my memory. You must remember that a lot of this occurred 15 or 20 years ago and I don't remember all the variations without a little jog to my memory.

 

[Al James]

Well thanks for jogging. Curious if there was ever a SS or nickel magazine before they went to the plastic base plates. Reason I ask is that I have some unmarked SS or nickel mags which I bought a long time ago as Factory mags. They have always worked good but Im starting to doubt that they are factory. Thanks for all of the info coffee pot!

 

[COFFEE POT]

There were a few samples, but none were ever made in production quantities that I'm aware of. They were submitted as samples by various mag vendors trying to get in as OEM suppliers. There were both stainless and nickel plated ones. None were ever seriously considered to the best of my recollection. Other than the .45 cal mags which were stainless from the start, the 9mm stainless factory mags weren't offered until the P95 was released. The customer service department would get pistols in for service with aftermarket stainless/nickel mags on occasion so I know they were out there. As I told you, it wasn't until new tooling was made that factory stainless mags appeared. They found a company in California that offered to supply stainless mag shells and they used them for a short time until they went bankrupt. But, if I remember correctly, they were only 10 rd shells. By that time, their normal vendor in the Northeast had the new tooling ready and were up and running.

 

[JNewell]

Bringing this one back up for another look. Lots of great information from Coffee Pot. I miss his great posts!

 

[berettapistols]

This is a great post & the pictures are worth a thousand words too..