.454 casull- update

[cleardatum]

is case capacity critical on 454's? i assembled my first batch last night, a near-minimum load (out of fear), 25 grains of vv n110, new starline cases, and that powder was compressed! the only substitution i made, was using starline cases instead of hornady. i can't imagine how compressed a full house load would be. any experiences with this cartridge?
UPDATE- i made a tool this evening to accurately measure the amount of powder compression. 25 grains of n110 in this batch of starline cases resulted in .020 of powder compression. 24.4 grains is minimum, per hornady's 9th edition manual. i decided to give imr 4227 a try. minimum charge from the same manual is 28.1 grains, so i tried 28.5. THAT powder resulted in .095 of compression. i doubt i could have seated a bullet to the recommended coal with that powder and that much compression. the cases weigh ~128 grains with primer. is there anyone out there who is familiar enough to know a typical case weight? i'm VERY leery of trying that 1st load, even though it's near minimum. what say ye, oh wize ones?

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I don't load the 454 but that doesn't sound right. What bullet and where did you get the load data?

I did check some v-N110 loads in my Lee book and they all start with compressed loads.

250gr XTP start 28.1c for 1719fps ......max 30.7c for 1873fps

300gr jacketed bullet start 26.3c for 1555fps .....max 28.7c for 1686fps

So it looks like you are right. Must be the v-N110 is very fluffy.

 

[cleardatum]

load data is from hornady's latest book. 300 grain xtp mag bullet, 25 grains n110. i triple checked everything, and then checked the scale with check weights- spot on. i've loaded some pretty warm .44 magnum loads with this powder (love it), and haven't run into any compressed loads. it surprised me, is all. thanks for the input. it is appreciated.

 

[gtxmonte]

I DO load 454 Casull. 25grs of N110 should NOT be compressed under any bullet I have ever loaded a Casull with

 

[cleardatum]

hmm... makes me uncomfortable. coal, case length, everything is spot on. maybe i'll load a few more tonight with a different powder. i've got some imr 4227 and some winchester 296.

 

[gtxmonte]

Max case is 1.383 and max overall is 1.765

In my opinion, that is not an ideal powder for that bullet. While the burn rate is very similar to 296 and others, the density is too high.

But none of this explains why 25grs is a compressed load, unless your cases are very thick in areas.

I have not used any Starline Casull brass........but as easy check is charge one of those next to Hornady brass and look, or see how much water each holds. That should answer the question

 

[gtxmonte]

After reading your "update" I am still not sure what you have going on. With 4227 and a jacketed bullet, you should not have a compressed charge until you get to about 30grs. So......either the cases are short, are light on capacity, or that bullet is long behind the cannelure. Do you have another brand case to compare?

 

[cleardatum]

i'm pretty confident the cases are "heavy". they're between "trim to", and maximum (1.378), and the cannelure was perfectly positioned at the specified coal. ima get some different brass. i suspect that will be the end of it. midway has hornady 454 on clearance, btw...

 

[DGW1949]

Seems to me that you might be looking at the wrong end of the mule.
Were it me, I'd be checking to see how much case capacity was getting used-up by whatever bullet(s) I was trying to use.

DGW

 

[cleardatum]

after some cogitation, i am inclined to agree. i do find it odd that a published load would be so compressed, though, and make no mention of such. i have hornady cases on the way, but i suspect the result will be nearly (if not exactly) the same. i'll also try some shorter bullets, which i suspect will not be a problem. thanks for the input.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

after some cogitation, i am inclined to agree. i do find it odd that a published load would be so compressed, though, and make no mention of such. i have hornady cases on the way, but i suspect the result will be nearly (if not exactly) the same. i'll also try some shorter bullets, which i suspect will not be a problem. thanks for the input.

At 25.0gr with a 300gr bullet I wouldn't be too worried that it is a little compressed. Like I showed you many of the v-N110 start loads are compressed. That is what the little 'c' means after the grains. perhaps you should try tapping the case a little to get the powder down a little. You could always start at 24.0gr and then move up to 25.0gr. I am betting right around there would be a great load for the 454.

(from the Lee book) 300gr jacketed bullet start 26.3c for 1555fps .....max 28.7c for 1686fps

 

[gtxmonte]

The point is not whether a compressed load is bad, because many Casull loads are................the point is what he is loading should NOT be compressed. So as speculated here, there seems to be a bullet or case issue. Neither load he has listed should be compressed.

As I said earlier, I have never loaded 300gr XTP bullets. I do use a jacketed 300gr, just not those. That's why I mentioned it may be long behind the canelure

 

[Jimbo357mag]

The point is not whether a compressed load is bad, because many Casull loads are................the point is what he is loading should NOT be compressed. So as speculated here, there seems to be a bullet or case issue. Neither load he has listed should be compressed.

As I said earlier, I have never loaded 300gr XTP bullets. I do use a jacketed 300gr, just not those. That's why I mentioned it may be long behind the canelure

The book says a 26.0gr load is compressed. Why can't a 25.gr load be slightly compressed? A 25.0gr load has got to be right there at the border.

 

[gtxmonte]

I don't load N110, so I can't comment...............but I DO load 4227 in my Casull. He says 28.5 grs has .095 compression. That's a LOT. You should not have compression until you get to 30grs and even at that, it shouldn't be as much as he says he has at 28.5.

You already said that you don't load 454, so you are reading from a book. I actually load this with several different types of powder, cases and bullets and have NEVER encountered what he has going on. I would want to know WHY and apparently he does too

 

[cleardatum]

i'm in communication with starline, i have hornady cases on the way, and i'll be picking up several different bullets this weekend- stay tuned.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I don't load N110, so I can't comment...............but I DO load 4227 in my Casull. He says 28.5 grs has .095 compression. That's a LOT. You should not have compression until you get to 30grs and even at that, it shouldn't be as much as he says he has at 28.5.

You already said that you don't load 454, so you are reading from a book. I actually load this with several different types of powder, cases and bullets and have NEVER encountered what he has going on. I would want to know WHY and apparently he does too

When I saw data that shows many 'start' loads for the 454 with v-N110 are compressed that is what I reported.

ETA I have also found that some 'start' loads for the 44mag with v-N110, 180gr jacketed and 240gr jacketed, are compressed. ...as odd as it seems it must be common that loads with this powder are compressed.

Other powders are a different story.

BTW here is the Vihtavuori load data for the 454 and they don't say anything about compressed loads?????

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/-454-casull.html

 

[cleardatum]

i worked up some more loads, from a variety of sources (lyman's, speer, hornady), and they are almost all compressed to some degree, regardless of which bullet or case i used (hornady and starline cases- they had near the same capacity. hornady and speer bullets). almost none of the loads are indicated as being compressed. i shall proceed with live fire experimentation.

 

[cleardatum]

live fire was excellent. the gun is quite a handful- a normal sized sar in .454! ouch! quite accurate with the n110. imr4227 not so good. as usual, a lot of unburned powder, though less than usual.