Are "short" cartridges more accurate...

Been reading about the .38 Short Colt and the .45 Cowboy short loads. And .38 Special. They look nice and I sorta understand the attraction. Right now I have and load only .357 cases in my .357. I guess my question is will there be an improvement in accuracy or will I get less recoil with the same accuracy if I were to go to a shorter cartridge in the same chamber? I am not a great shot. I have a load that I can shoot 1 1/4" inch groups "barrel rested" with at 25 yards and others that shoot around 3". Will .38 special loads or short colt loads improve that? I also shoot a .41 Mag. Is there a short load that will improve that experience? The .41 Special wildcat?

Theoretically, that depends on the length of the cylinder and the chamber length. A mild target load used in a .357 Magnum case, and fired in a .357 Magnum cylinder, should give the best accuracy. Years ago Smith & Wesson produced the .32-44 and .38-44 cartridges. (Not to be confused with the .38-44 Special of the 'Thirties.) The bullet was seated entirely flush with the case mouth, and the case was the same length as the cylinder. The idea was that the bullet was supported full length until it jumped into the forcing cone. Bullseye target shooters found that the 148 gr. wadcutter (in .38 Special chambers) proved to be outstanding in .38 Special revolvers. A few Colt Pythons were produced in .38 Special for target shooters. A short case in a long chamber allows the bullet to "wobble" from the case mouth to the chamber throat. My own experience is that the difference is so slight as to be beyond my capablity. As for me, I load cases that are chamber length.

Here is a very accurate short cased load, my .45 Xtra Short, which are shortened .45 Colt cases, and fired in the .45 ACP cylinder in my Blackhawk. No real reason for its existence other than just because I could.






Bob Wright

As a matter of interest, here are some specimens of the .38-44. (The designation is derived from the fact that the cartridge was .38 caliber (nominal) and used in the No.3 Top Break revolver, which was the .44 frame.



Bob Wright

By the way, the .45 Shown in the photos no longer looks that way. Here is is now:



Bob Wright

A couple of things come to mind.

First off, if you load a shorted case in a longer cylinder, (38 spl in a .357 chamber) you can get fouling to where a build up happens & you have problems chambering a .357 case later on. Often, folks have to spend some serious time cleaning a cylinder's chambers extensively to get them to chamber the longer cases.

Second. The chambers are cut for the longer cases,,, and as noted above by Bob,, you MAY get a slight "wobble" of the bullet as it moves down the chamber & into the barrel's forcing cone. If it enters a little "off" it can easily affect accuracy.

I have played with my .454 Casull Freedom Arms in using a reduced load. I use nothing but .454 cases to avoid the chamber fouling,, AND to assure the bullet is supported by the case as much as possible until it enters the forcing cone. I can get 3"-4" groups at 100 yds with this.

Then there is the fun I've had learning about the process of "deep seating" a bullet. In my .357 Maximum, when loading the heavy & longer bullet designed by David Bradshaw & Lee Martin,, we deep seat the bullet to where the crimp is over the front driving band. And accuracy is excellent. BUT,, that bullet is also longer for caliber, and was designed to be loaded that way.

All this is shared to allow you to realize there's not always a cut "n dried answer to your question. The best thing to do is to "experiment & see what YOUR gun likes & dislikes, in YOUR hands on YOUR range.

contender said:

A couple of things come to mind.

First off, if you load a shorted case in a longer cylinder, (38 spl in a .357 chamber) you can get fouling to where a build up happens & you have problems chambering a .357 case later on. Often, folks have to spend some serious time cleaning a cylinder's chambers extensively to get them to chamber the longer cases.

Second. The chambers are cut for the longer cases,,, and as noted above by Bob,, you MAY get a slight "wobble" of the bullet as it moves down the chamber & into the barrel's forcing cone. If it enters a little "off" it can easily affect accuracy.

I have played with my .454 Casull Freedom Arms in using a reduced load. I use nothing but .454 cases to avoid the chamber fouling,, AND to assure the bullet is supported by the case as much as possible until it enters the forcing cone. I can get 3"-4" groups at 100 yds with this.

Then there is the fun I've had learning about the process of "deep seating" a bullet. In my .357 Maximum, when loading the heavy & longer bullet designed by David Bradshaw & Lee Martin,, we deep seat the bullet to where the crimp is over the front driving band. And accuracy is excellent. BUT,, that bullet is also longer for caliber, and was designed to be loaded that way.

All this is shared to allow you to realize there's not always a cut "n dried answer to your question. The best thing to do is to "experiment & see what YOUR gun likes & dislikes, in YOUR hands on YOUR range.

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All I can say to that is, "Amen."

Bob Wright

I would think as an average, shorter bullets and short cases would be less accurate than cartridges and bullets loaded to full chamber length with minimal cylinder to forcing cone jump. Spend time accurizing the firearm and then get the cartridge combination properly loaded for best accuracy. Light loads and max mag loads are often not the most accurate.
Plus all the good stuff said above.

jimbo1096 said:

I would think as an average, shorter bullets and short cases would be less accurate than cartridges and bullets loaded to full chamber length with minimal cylinder to forcing cone jump. Spend time accurizing the firearm and then get the cartridge combination properly loaded for best accuracy. Light loads and max mag loads are often not the most accurate.
Plus all the good stuff said above.

Click to expand...

While really not applicable to handguns so much as to rifles, but length of the bullet is a consideration combined with the rifling pitch. Generally, shorter bullets require a "Slower" pitch to be properly stabilized, while longer bullets require a "faster" pitch. This study came from US Army Ordnance studies during the World War I era when trying to determine the correct bullet profile for overhead fire from machine guns, especially the old M1917 water cooled guns.

This has nothing to do with this discussion, just threw that in to show off.

Bob Wright

The fouling idea gets a little to much publicity. If you load decent 38 special you will still be able to chamber a 357 mag round.

500 38 special shot without cleaning and unsized 357 magnum cases fit just fine.





38 short and long colt work fine out to 15 yards, but 38 special or 357 magnum round work better at 25 to 50 yards.

basically all I shoot is 38/357

I am going to say "maybe". A short cartridge in a chamber cut for that cartridge can be exceptionally accurate, but the same can be said for a cartridge with a long case. I've shot bragging size groups with a friend's 32 S&W Long revolver and with my 327 Federal, both with ammunition for which they are chambered. Ditto a buddy's 45 ACP Blackhawk and my 45 Colt Vaquero.

That being said, many match guns shoot short-for-caliber cartridges (32 S&W Long, 38 Special, 45 ACP for example), so there may be some merit to the idea that the stubbier cartridges have more inherent accuracy. It could also be a function of lighter recoil and less muzzle blast to distract the person behind the trigger...

I will go with the less recoil and muzzle blast make the shooter a better faster shooter than more recoil more muzzle blast. Is the shorter cartridge more accurate? Good question.
I also hold the theory that experienced people shoot a longer barrel handgun more accurate than a shorter barrel based on the longer sight radius not so much that a 2 inch barrel will not be accurate vs a 6 inch. It's more of what the human eye does better with.

I think we've drifted away from the main point, that is, short cartridges fired in a long chamber, i.e., the .38 Short Colt fired in a .357 Magnum chambered cylinder.

Bob Wright

dannyd,, I'd like to point out that your observation leaves out a little info. Were you shooting cast or jacketed bullets?
Cast bullets,, (traditionally lubed types) often leave a LOT more fouling than a jacketed bullet. I recently was shooting up some older ammo I had in one of my .357 mag revolvers. It was .38 spl brass, and cast/lubed bullets. I got a lot more fouling than I would have gotten with jacketed bullets. But after only about 75 rounds, I had a very noticeable ring in the chambers. Took a bit of serious cleaning to where it's chamber a .357 round.
But with jacketed,, or now,, even plated or powder coated bullets,, now it takes longer to get a fouled chamber.

But back to accuracy.

Since all guns are basically a machine,, with several moving parts, that must work together to be a good machine or a marginal machine. Only by trial & testing can a person discover what THEIR gun will act like when they try THEIR ammo in that specific gun.

I don't think I've seen it mentioned thus far in the thread, but there's something to be said for greater load density in short cartridges. People have experimented with firing cartridges after placing them in different orientations and gotten fairly different velocity results. A load near 100% load density should minimize this variation; this will be more easily achieved with mild loads in shorter cartridges. Barring alignment issues that have been discussed, this is one potential positive to shorter cartridges in a long cylinder.

I believe NikA tied it all together. The muzzle blast, recoil, and anticipation of both cause flinch. One factor. Then there is shooting a cartridge length that matches what the chamber is machined for. Another factor. Loading a cartridge with an amount of powder that is bulky enough to come as close as possible to the base of the bullet to minimize air space between them. One more factor. Then sizing the bullet to fit the barrel with a base that seals the gas to prevent blow by. Couple these with having each chamber throat with the same dimension and are in alignment with the barrel. Add in the fit of the grip and ease of trigger pull. In the end, if you have all that going for you, it comes down to the shooters technique pulling the trigger while keeping the sights aligned with the bullseye. These hold true no matter the cartridge length or power.

Bob Wright said:

Theoretically, that depends on the length of the cylinder and the chamber length. A mild target load used in a .357 Magnum case, and fired in a .357 Magnum cylinder, should give the best accuracy. Years ago Smith & Wesson produced the .32-44 and .38-44 cartridges. (Not to be confused with the .38-44 Special of the 'Thirties.) The bullet was seated entirely flush with the case mouth, and the case was the same length as the cylinder. The idea was that the bullet was supported full length until it jumped into the forcing cone. Bullseye target shooters found that the 148 gr. wadcutter (in .38 Special chambers) proved to be outstanding in .38 Special revolvers. A few Colt Pythons were produced in .38 Special for target shooters. A short case in a long chamber allows the bullet to "wobble" from the case mouth to the chamber throat. My own experience is that the difference is so slight as to be beyond my capablity. As for me, I load cases that are chamber length.

Here is a very accurate short cased load, my .45 Xtra Short, which are shortened .45 Colt cases, and fired in the .45 ACP cylinder in my Blackhawk. No real reason for its existence other than just because I could.






Bob Wright

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real nice pistol and great shooting

"I don't think I've seen it mentioned thus far in the thread, but there's something to be said for greater load density in short cartridges."
'Load density' compared to what? A 38 gallery load in a 357 or a full power load in both? Using a 'slow' powder or a 'fast' powder?
Even as Contender commented, the type of bullet used is a factor.
In my experience, limited use of even the lighter 38 loads in a 357 cylinder has little effect nor will it affect the chambering of 357 loads. When I was carrying a GP100 as a chore gun, 3 chambers were loaded with light 38's using a 158 swaged HP and 3 with upper end 357 JHP. No thought was given to reloading same chambers from one use to the next and never a problem arose.

One other thing I want to mention about shooting cartridges shorter than the chamber; cavitation. Shoot enough standard or +P pressure 38 Specials in a 357 Magnum, or 45 Colt in a 454 Casull, and it can cause erosion just ahead of the case mouth. This creates a "wide spot" in the chamber which the longer high pressure cartridges will swell into causing difficult extraction. This is one reason Freedom Arms does not recommend shooting 45 Colt in their 454 Casull cylinders. I own my great grandfather's Model 12A Remington 22LR that he fired almost exclusively with Shorts. It still works fine with shorts, but will no longer extract 22 LRs.

Looks like everyone has the 38/357 questions covered well. So I'll chip in on the other about the 41 special.

As of just a few days ago there was new Starline 41 Special brass floating around, looks like they just released a new batch. Now, it may have already dried up, but I googled it & it seemed to be available from several vendors.

For me this thread is kind of moot. I can't find a .38 short or even a .38 S&W to save my life, and no one can point me in the right direction. I found one box that was incorrectly stored before I received it, and the ammo didn't look like something I wanted to try. In answer to the OP, the one box I got with my wheel ( Remington Performance Wheel Gun) was pretty damn accurate.