Group sizes at 100 yards

Help Support Ruger Forum:

Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
9,732
Location
Dallas, TX
noahmercy: I couldn't do that 100 yard shot using a revolver, but I do believe it's entirely possible. And I'm sure with a little practice I could manage something close.

It's funny someone would argue with you over that.
 
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
4,478
Location
Maryland
My Dan Wesson with the regular 10" Douglas Barrel did 2"@200yds with regular handloads. With the 16" Pac Nor and the most meticulous handloads I have ever heard of managed 3/4"@200yds 8"@1,000yds.
 

Attachments

  • IMAG0421.jpg
    IMAG0421.jpg
    665.2 KB · Views: 54
  • Dan Wesson.jpg
    Dan Wesson.jpg
    374.4 KB · Views: 55

NikA

Buckeye
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
1,820
Location
Yrisarri, NM- high in the Manzanos
@Hvymax I'd like to know more about the loads you accomplished this feat with, since I don't see how ~.8MOA is possible with bullets available for .44M loading. What bullets were used, and what additional variables were controlled in your 'meticulous handloads'? Where did you find a 1000 yard shooting spot with such perfect atmospheric conditions? What bullet design compensates for the supersonic-subsonic transition so consistently? Seriously asking, I am interested to know for the purposes of my own experimentation.
 
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
4,478
Location
Maryland
The loads started with neck turned and trimmed virgin brass. Then I separated bullets into groups of 6 weighing within .01gr. after initial load workup using different bullets cast and jacketed through 3 custom spec barrels 2 from Douglas and 1 from Pac Nor I settled on one of the 300gr fmj with the Pac Nor barrel. Once I had a load 20+gr of Lil Gun dialed in I weighed out powder charges where the last few flakes were chosen with tweezers. I also ran a .002 cylinder gap and a forcing cone I designed in the 80's that I call the spade. Having a backyard range made load development easier. I could charge and seat 3 at a time and shoot over the chrony for groups. Once I was happy I built a 10' high target stand to work from my neighbors yard to get the setup for 143'6" of drop the hardest part was getting the reticle perfectly plumb even a few thousandth's would add up. Nobody seems to question that Sharps rifles with ladder sights hand swaged or cast paper patched bullets and black powder could hit at those distances all day. But someone running ballistic data through a computer using components matched beyond anything they could measure 140 years ago using 40x magnification glass that cost more than half of the cars I've owned couldn't is the silly statement. Peacemaker in WV has up to 1,200yds available. Conditions don't have to be perfect just consistent for about 5 minutes.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
4,478
Location
Maryland
Once I gathered data in 25 yds increments to 250 yds including wind and temp it was plugged into NSWC computers which could probably dial into 1/4" all things being equal to 1,800yds with over 1,000ft of drop.
There might have been actual Rocket Science involved on the computers part.
 
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Messages
1,305
Location
Wi USA
I shot this group back in 2015 or 16 , off sand bags at 100 yards , it's a stock early Contender with I believe a Super 14 barrel, not the greatest group in the world but a US Quarter is about 7/8 " across , so maybe 1 1/4" give or take, right click on the picture and open in new window
 

Attachments

  • e6bad4463cbab23eccf46ecf5131a86d.jpg
    e6bad4463cbab23eccf46ecf5131a86d.jpg
    46.9 KB · Views: 104
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
4,478
Location
Maryland
I shoot this group back in 2015 or 16 , off sand bags at 100 yards , it's a stock early Contender with I believe a Super 14 barrel, not the greatest group in the world but a US Quarter is about 7/8 " across , so maybe 1 1/4" give or take, right click on the picture and open in new window
I shoot this group back in 2015 or 16 , off sand bags at 100 yards , it's a stock early Contender with I believe a Super 14 barrel, not the greatest group in the world but a US Quarter is about 7/8 " across , so maybe 1 1/4" give or take, right click on the picture and open in new window
Exactly!!! Numbnuts has probably never worked up a load and thinks Winchester White Box is match grade much less speced out custom cuts and twist rates much less used stop motion photography to design a custom forcing cone design. That's what a normally worked up load with a stock barrel was capable of. There was a decent selection of barrels available for the TC's. Dan Wesson's had limitless options. I could spec and order anything and all I had to do was turn, thread cone and crown. About an hour with a lathe.
 
Last edited:

NikA

Buckeye
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
1,820
Location
Yrisarri, NM- high in the Manzanos
But someone running ballistic data through a computer using components matched beyond anything they could measure 140 years ago using 40x magnification glass that cost more than half of the cars I've owned couldn't is the silly statement.
I am skeptical of claims of ~.8MOA for Sharps rifles as well, but the point on the greater accuracy of modern technology is well taken. I guess most of my skepticism comes from the supersonic-subsonic transition and the stochastic nature of that transition. That isn't in play for .44M at distances under ~250 yards where the bullet is still supersonic, and I understand one of the objectives of long distance rifle shooting is to keep the bullet from hitting this transition for as long a distance as possible. Hence me wondering if you had some magic sauce related to stabilizing bullets through this transition.

I believe that the long, heavy bullets of BP single shot rifles may have helped with this, and I'm remembering that you custom spec'd twist rates for your barrels which may have had a similar effect. There's no need to get snippy in response to what was a set of honest questions about your methods, especially since what you claim to have achieved puts you in (unrecorded?) world record territory.
 
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
4,478
Location
Maryland
I am skeptical of claims of ~.8MOA for Sharps rifles as well, but the point on the greater accuracy of modern technology is well taken. I guess most of my skepticism comes from the supersonic-subsonic transition and the stochastic nature of that transition. That isn't in play for .44M at distances under ~250 yards where the bullet is still supersonic, and I understand one of the objectives of long distance rifle shooting is to keep the bullet from hitting this transition for as long a distance as possible. Hence me wondering if you had some magic sauce related to stabilizing bullets through this transition.

I believe that the long, heavy bullets of BP single shot rifles may have helped with this, and I'm remembering that you custom spec'd twist rates for your barrels which may have had a similar effect. There's no need to get snippy in response to what was a set of honest questions about your methods, especially since what you claim to have achieved puts you in (unrecorded?) world record territory.
I wouldn't say that. It was an exercise started by a pissing contest. I was getting MOA out of my "standard" 44 mag IHMSA setup. I was pretty much in original 45/70 ballistics 40 years ago. As long as the bullet is spinning the sonic to sub transition shouldn't be destabilizing. I'll have to go dig out the data and remaining bullets etc. That was 6 years ago and I've put my 300EBR back together. It was stupid accurate in 30/06 but I opened it up to 300. Anyone can buy a setup. I commit unnatural acts with metal.
IMG_20140220_162733_951.jpg
 

saleen322

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
16
Location
Was western PA, now Florida
A revolver is capable of 2 MOA and better but it usually takes more tuning than a decent rifle would. We bought a SBH in 10mm and that thing just shot well right out of the box. The 50 yard target below was the first at 50 and I thought pretty good. The last shot, the one out to the right, felt good like the rest but when I checked the revolver before putting up a new target and I found one of the scope base screws loose. I tightened the screw with my fingers and shot 6 rounds at 100 just to try it. That group was right at 4" @ 100 yards without working up a load for the revolver. The potential is there.

To prove the point, included is a pic with a S&W 460 which will consistently shoot under 2" @ 100 yards. That group shown is 1 5/8" @ 100 yards. Bottom line it is doable with some experimenting.

SRH 10mm 50 yd-A (2021_06_22 12_37_46 UTC).jpg
200-100 Yrds.jpg
100 Yard SRH-A.jpg
 
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
4,478
Location
Maryland
These are some of my 330 gr cast loads. Once I have a baseline set on my powder measure I can throw charges seat and crimp, chrony, group without getting up from my seat. Bullets seated a few thousandth's from the end of the cylinder. .002 cylinder gap. That's about 1/3-1/2 RCH.(Yes we actually measured some)
 

Attachments

  • IMAG0473.jpg
    IMAG0473.jpg
    310.7 KB · Views: 53
  • IMAG0476.jpg
    IMAG0476.jpg
    257.5 KB · Views: 54
  • IMAG0475.jpg
    IMAG0475.jpg
    208 KB · Views: 55
Last edited:

gunzo

Hunter
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
2,010
Location
Kentucky
I doubt there are any 44 revolver
I am skeptical of claims of ~.8MOA for Sharps rifles as well, but the point on the greater accuracy of modern technology is well taken. I guess most of my skepticism comes from the supersonic-subsonic transition and the stochastic nature of that transition. That isn't in play for .44M at distances under ~250 yards where the bullet is still supersonic, and I understand one of the objectives of long distance rifle shooting is to keep the bullet from hitting this transition for as long a distance as possible. Hence me wondering if you had some magic sauce related to stabilizing bullets through this transition.

I believe that the long, heavy bullets of BP single shot rifles may have helped with this, and I'm remembering that you custom spec'd twist rates for your barrels which may have had a similar effect. There's no need to get snippy in response to what was a set of honest questions about your methods, especially since what you claim to have achieved puts you in (unrecorded?) world record territory.
I doubt there are any 44 revolver loads capable of being supersonic at near 250 yards. JBM says a 265 Hornady @1300 MV goes sub at 99 yards.
My point is that the transition that "can sometimes" be so critical when shooting rifles may not apply to beer barrel shaped handgun bullets.
Just a thought.
 

shoot to thrill

Single-Sixer
Joined
Oct 1, 2022
Messages
182
Location
ny
I am skeptical of claims of ~.8MOA for Sharps rifles as well, but the point on the greater accuracy of modern technology is well taken. I guess most of my skepticism comes from the supersonic-subsonic transition and the stochastic nature of that transition. That isn't in play for .44M at distances under ~250 yards where the bullet is still supersonic, and I understand one of the objectives of long distance rifle shooting is to keep the bullet from hitting this transition for as long a distance as possible. Hence me wondering if you had some magic sauce related to stabilizing bullets through this transition.

I believe that the long, heavy bullets of BP single shot rifles may have helped with this, and I'm remembering that you custom spec'd twist rates for your barrels which may have had a similar effect. There's no need to get snippy in response to what was a set of honest questions about your methods, especially since what you claim to have achieved puts you in (unrecorded?) world record territory.
that would seem to be world record category but I always use Reagans saying...trust but verify. I shot my friend 50 S&W when they first came out with a scope we did 3-4 inches at 100
 

NikA

Buckeye
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
1,820
Location
Yrisarri, NM- high in the Manzanos
I doubt there are any 44 revolver loads capable of being supersonic at near 250 yards. JBM says a 265 Hornady @1300 MV goes sub at 99 yards.
My point is that the transition that "can sometimes" be so critical when shooting rifles may not apply to beer barrel shaped handgun bullets.
Just a thought.
I got the 250 yard figure from .44M rifle load data. The barrel length on Hvymax's custom revolver is 16", so I figured rifle velocity data is probably more relevant. Most posters are making 100 yard claims, which would be supersonic or near the transition per your data. I was sort of leaning towards the stability issue being related to sectional density, in which case fat heavy bullets that are relatively short would be problematic.
 

Guntrainer

Bearcat
Joined
Nov 24, 2022
Messages
5
Location
Nashville, Tenn
This man harvested game at six hundred yards with a 44 magnum. With witnesses. Any questions?

The 300 gr jacketed bullet is my favorite in the Super Redhawk. Noticeably more accurate than lighter bullets, flatter trajectory over 100 yards. Using Alliant 300MP, I can run it faster than the factory 240 with industry standard pressure.
 

Attachments

  • 1672771836930.jpeg
    1672771836930.jpeg
    28.5 KB · Views: 68

Paul B

Hunter
Joined
Dec 4, 1999
Messages
2,143
Location
Tucson, AZ
When I lived in Nevada I did a lot of handgun shooting, mostly with the 357 Mag. at first then the .44 Mag. My hunting partner and I would shoot jackrabbits all year round with our handguns, trying for head shots only on the ones that would stand still. We got so a running jack, even as far out as 100 or so yards was in serious trouble. One night as we were spotlighting jacks, we caught one in the headlights standing broadside, his eye glowing like a diamond. I told my buddy I was gonna hit him right i the eye. My buddy say $20 says you don't. I squeezed the sho of and the rabbit did the classic flip flopping of a head shot jack so we went over and sure and God made little green apples, my bullet had hit that rabbit right in the eye. Pure luck? You tell me.

A few years back my bud and I were invited to do an elk hunt in Washington state that would be based in the little town of Humptulips. One of the people involved with the hunt was a retired judge who aboslutely hated handguns. I mean thos dude was rabidly against them. We were standing at the edge of a cliff overlooking the Humptulips River and that judge started in on me again. He said you can't hit anything farther out than ten feet. I was tempted to ask him if he felt safe as 11 feet if I were to shoot at him. Anyway, looking down on the river, I'll bet I can hit that log sticking out into the water. ait had branch that stuck out very nicely so I said $100 says I can hit that branch with one of the six shots in my gun or at least come close enough to prove a hit is potentially possible. He said my would not shoot that far so no bet. I said put up or shut up. If you're right and my gun won't shoot that far, it's just an easy Benjamin in your pocket. He says OK so I take aim and hold where I think I'll come close to the branch and shoot. I wish I could have seen the look on that old judge's face when sure as hell, I'd clipped the branch. I turn and face him and ask, "Do you want to try double or nothing?" He declined. At least he didn't welch out on the bet.

One other incident educating scoffers. I was at the range trying out a new snub nosed revolver, an S&W M49 to be exact. There was a guy shooting one of those very expensive single shot pistols used in .22 cal. silhouette games. He made a snide comment about "Saturday Night Specials" so I waited for the cease fire.I then put up a silhouette target that has the shape of a man and an it out to 100 yards. He said something to the effect that I wasn't thinking about shoot at that target with the M49 was I? I said I was and $100 says I can hit it at least once with one of the five rounds in the cylinder. He thought I was joking. I wasn't. Taking a good solid rest on a nearby pole I slowly let off five rounds. One hit the paper and four were in the torso of the target. It wasn't the first time I shut sown some would be expert.

I haven't done much handgun shooting since my knees went out and honestly, haven't shot anything, rifle, pistol or shotgun in almost four years. It's all health related and doctor's orders. I'll be making some changes regarding that situation in about 8 weeks, the Good Lord awillin'. Probably shoot .22 LR and .38 Spl. for a wile Might try the .357 Mag. next and finally the .44 Mag. Biggest problem is casting up a supply of bullets and getting them loaded up. Should be interesting.
Paul B.
 
Top