Copper bullets better for deer Hunting?

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contender

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Well, by no means am I an authority on the subject. When I shoot a revolver,, most of my stuff is cast & powder coated. When I use jacketed bullets most of mine are a lead core design.

But, back in 1996,, on my first elk hunt,, I used the Barnes X bullets. And again on my second elk,, I used them again. The newer designs may be a little different. But the ones I used,, they had a recommended velocity range to get reliable expansion. I have not used any of the VX ones.

Ca. has banned lead ammo mostly because of the eco-freaks attitudes.
 

GunnyGene

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LaLaLand said:
Are copper bullets primarily due to California restrictions or are they a better bullet? Reason I ask, when I use Federal's site to help me pick a bullet for medium size game, they recommend premium bullets for the most part but in most cases, also incl the power shok copper bullet, not the fusion or less expensive bullets. Makes me wonder if the copper is really superior to core lok type bullets. I know Barnes vx bullets have an outstanding reputation, are they copper too?

looking at 243 for my daughter.

The game doesn't care. And a properly placed lead is just as effective as a properly placed copper. And in most cases the copper will chew up far more meat than a WFN lead slug, because of the large wound channel they create. But, if you're just interested in the trophy and not meat for the freezer it's not an issue. I like to eat what I kill, not brag about the size of the wound channel.
 

A.J.

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I know next to nothing about copper bullets. That said, if it's an idea blessed or mandated by the State of California, I'll stick with lead.
 

contender

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A lot depends upon what KIND of game as well as the type of construction the copper bullets are. A copper FMJ (think military ammo here,) will more often punch a small hole going all the way through something,, unless it strikes a bone & gets deformed. A cast WFN pistol round can do the same,, but I think the OP is discussing rifle ammo here.
But an all copper bullet designed for hunting,, such as most Barnes hunting bullets are,, depends upon it's design, it's velocity, and as always,, bullet placement when hunting. A slower moving copper bullet from Barnes may or may not open & expand enough to give a good clean quick kill. And yet,, it can also hit the heart, punch a good hole w/o expanding,, and kill just as dead.

The California attitude of no lead bullets started by the eco-freaks saying the endangered Condor was digesting lead from lost game animals they ate. That caused them to get lead poisoning, (supposedly,) so they got the libertards in Ca government to ban lead bullets in certain areas. Well, we've all seen what happens when a camel gets it's nose under the tent,, it soon has entered the tent. They soon expanded the lead bullet ban to all areas. Using fake info & such. It was an end run around the laws to (hopefully) stop hunting,,, or at least reduce it a lot.

All copper solid bullets (as well as some all solid brass) are also used to hunt seriously dangerous game. They are called "Punch" bullets. Designed to not expand, & punch a deep or completely penetrating wound channel in tough hided, large muscle massed animals.

For medium sized game,, and if not restricted to the Ca. ban,, I'd prefer a "normal" lead core copper jacketed rifle bullet in general. Everything from the older Remington Core-Locks to the more modern premium grade bullets from several makers.
 
Joined
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This is not a popular opinion, but a lead bullet that loses mass in an animal absolutely does cause lead poisoning in birds. The more frangible, the greater the secondary poisoning. Low velocity hard cast bullets (think revolvers) don't generally fragment and don't have the same effect, but I doubt there are many big game bullets that are as damaging as Bergers in this regard. Folks in rehab centers are increasingly testing golden eagles and other raptors for lead and states are increasingly keeping track of the results. As a community we can either try to self regulate and move away from frangible lead bullets for hunting (or properly dispose of remains and gut piles) or we can watch state after state follow California's example because make no mistake, when jays, magpies, eagles, ravens, nuthatches, hawks, etc etc etc are increasingly kicking the bucket from lead poisoning the anti hunters will have all the power they need to eliminate lead bullets period. And don't think the gun control crowd isn't already watching California's examples as well because they know lead bullets are the only affordable option for practice, if they can nix that they will have made great strides.
 
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I've used 'monolith' bullets for several years and here's my OPINION based on my limited personal use:
Any of the monolith type bullets will kill deer as will most any of the cup and core jacketed lead bullets. Cost wise, the 'copper'(many aren't actually copper) bullets are more expensive and don't kill deer any better than the cheaper cup and core or 'plated' jacket type bullets.
Here's the issue with monolith bullets- most require a minimum velocity and work best at the upper end of the cartridge's velocity range. I've shot deer with a 25/06 testing the Nosler 'E-Tip' bullets and found only moderate expansion at longer ranges where the velocity was reduced. These bullets expand well enough on elk due to the bigger body size but would zip right through a deer at the same ranges.
My advice: choose a cup and core (the typical pointed soft point) or a plated jacket (like the FUSION) and place them properly.
 

contender

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Northerngos,, I see your thought process. However,, I'd like to offer a bit of information to consider.

Copper jacketed bullets with a lead core, that fragment,, can leave small pieces of lead behind. That's true. Generally speaking,, the bullets mostly pass through an animal. Guts do not trap bullets. Bone, muscle & skin is where bullets are captured,, when any are actually caught. And most remains are also not known to have captured lead bullets. Maybe some small fragments,, but not any quantity of lead that could cause issues.
If that were true,, then all the humans who've eaten big game for centuries would have elevated levels of lead,, OR die from lead poison if the quantity was enough to be dangerous.

Cast bullets use a lube,, OR nowadays,, powder coating quite often,, to where again,, only small amounts of lead could or would be left behind. In fact,, quite often,, a powder coated bullet that's been recovered has most of the coating still intact,, so the transfer of microscopic lead particles is also very low to almost non-existent.

Frangible ammo,, designed to be used indoors and not on game isn't in the field enough to even be considered. Now,, I've met Walt Berger,, and for many years,, his bullets were primarily for target shooting & it wasn't until after he sold the company that they branched out into hunting bullets. Since I've not used any of them,, I can't offer any educated information on those. I'm not saying a small number of folks have been using the Berger target bullets on game,, but the numbers again,, would be very low.

As for the lead levels in raptors etc,, I'd venture to guess that if they are seeing a rise in the levels,, it is NOT caused by animals shot with bullets.
Remember,, only a small percentage of animals are shot & not recovered by hunters.
Trace amounts are so minuscule,, that it further lowers the chances of lead toxicity.

I have studied this subject quite a bit. And,, since you are a newly registered member,, I'll introduce myself. I'm a State Certified Animal Damage Control Agent. I deal in wildlife daily. Biologists in my home state have stated that approximately 12%-14% of the deer shot by hunters are not recovered. And quite often,, scavengers such as coyotes get most of the lost deer. Raptors are VERY low on the list of animals that get to a carcass. Even buzzards (which are protected,) don't often get a chance because of the coyotes.

In short,, I think the whole thought process of raptors & such getting lead poisoning from eating carrion shot by hunters is an extremely LOW percentage chance. It IS considered by many serious biologists that pollution is the leading culprit of lead issues in animals.
 

contender

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My post above was not to belittle Northerngos,, but instead,, try & offer an educated different viewpoint.

Lately,, the media is all about; "Follow the science" & expects us to believe whatever their media outlets say that is the "science" of stuff. (Not just the beer virus,, but global warming, climate change, etc. All of their narratives.)

But when this stuff came up way back when with the Ca. condors,, the real biologists & scientists that put forth hard evidence and facts,, they were shut down. And the media,, the anti-hunting groups, & the eco-freaks all had the loud platform to promote their agenda. They first claimed they were "just doing it in the areas where the endangered condors were. But,, like the camel with it's nose under the tent,, it soon expanded to the rest of the state.
Northerngos is correct in that we must be vigilant in stopping this type of attack upon us.

So,, I actually studied & gathered info based upon real science,, w/o any media hoopla,, so that as a Hunter Safety Instructor,, I could teach facts. And I use the percentages,, math & numbers, to put forth the information.

Kinda like; The percentage of people who get struck by lightening. Or maybe bitten by a shark. Or how many people join the BSA AND reach Eagle Scout. When put into percentages,, and the numbers are allowed in the conversation,, it opens a lot of eyes AND minds.

I've told the story before here.
A guy wanted to get the Town of Lake Lure to ban archery hunting in the city limits. His argument? He claimed to have been "shot in the left ear with an arrow by a hunter."
The news media posted his story (3) times that I saw. The media also posted a story of a guy who "found an arrow stuck in his fence" in another area,, at the same time. The media NEVER posted a differing narrative.
At the local Town meeting,, I was one of many who signed up to speak. In fact,, I got there very early to make sure I was the FIRST one to speak,, (after of course this guy was allowed to put forth his story.)
His narrative; "Three years ago, at about 9 pm, I was walking my dog on mine & my neighbors property when I was shot in the left ear by an arrow."
I had the facts; Annual number of licenses sold. Annual number of hunter safety students. Annual injuries. Annual deaths. I had records from 1960 to the (then) current year. I had totaled everything,, & averaged them out. The percentages of accidents was 0.00009 per licensed hunter. the annual number of deaths was 0.000001 per licensed hunter. Then I had the facts presented by the State that NOBODY had ever had an accident where they had been shot by an arrow. Not the Town of Lake Lure Police dept, the District #9 Wildlife, nor the entire State. Not a single report of anybody ever reporting being shot with an arrow.
Plus,, at 9 pm, it was totally dark,, nobody would be hunting. I asked; Did he have permission to be on his neighbor's property? And the claim of being within 50 ft of town property was false due to the river dividing him from town property was over 200 ft wide.

My closing statement was; "I've presented many facts,, backed up by the report copies I've given the the Council members. Now,, Mr. Owens claims to have been shot by an arrow. I'm not saying he is lying,, but I'd sure like to see some proof. He's not presented an accident report, a Police report, a Wildlife report, a doctors report,, or heck,, he didn't even bring an arrow. So, with full respect, I think the idea of trying to close hunting with archery equipment would not be in the best interests of the Town."

There weren't many who'd signed up to speak after I got done,, and ALL were in favor of my side of things. The Chief Deputy from the police dept was one who had planned to speak but didn't, and THANKED me profusely.
Mr. Owen stomped out of the room shortly after the Council & Mayor dropped the whole discussion.

My point is,, that when you present true, hard facts,, without any emotions involved,, where it can't be disputed,, you can often win arguments,, all the way to the Court system.

So this goes back to the facts. Bullets,, either lead core jacketed ones,, or even solid lead ones are not the reason animals get an elevated lead level. The REAL science proves that.
 
Joined
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Trouble is Legislators who know little or nothing about hunting and fair chase make all the laws!
Activist with an agendas suck up to politician who believe they are doing the right thing and shut things down!
Can take years to fix legislators dumb moves. ps
 

Busterswoodshop

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It's all about lead.
They tree huggers and prairie fairies have been trying to stop lead bullets for years.
Just one more thing they can take from you.

As far as copper being a better bullet goes ,
I have never seen a deer killed any deader from a copper bullet than by a lead bullet.

{ Not sure if deader is a word , but it fits here ).
 

Paul B

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"But when this stuff came up way back when with the Ca. condors,, the real biologists & scientists that put forth hard evidence and facts,, they were shut down. And the media,, the anti-hunting groups, & the eco-freaks all had the loud platform to promote their agenda. They first claimed they were "just doing it in the areas where the endangered condors were. But,, like the camel with it's nose under the tent,, it soon expanded to the rest of the state."

There's a lot of truth in that comment. While lead was found in the crops of some dead condors, they also found bits of tin foil, tabs from beer and soda pop cans and other bits of shiny material. There used to be a thread on this site IIRC where X-rqy photos were shown proving that other than lead materials were in the birds crops.

I don't have a lot of experience with monometal bullets but I have taken six elk with a .35 Whelen and the Barnes 225 gr. TSX bullet and it worked very well. That same load also cost me what just might have been a Boone & Crockett Mule Deer a few years back. I had a clear shot at the buck but if I'd shot, that TSX bullet would have passed through that deer and hit at least one of several does behind him. Be a bit hard explaining why I'd shot two or maybe three deer. Arizona's Fish & Game wardens from very deeply on such happenings.

Another thing, I've heard people say they won't eat venison from animals shot with bullets containing lead as they might eat a fragment or two and endanger their health. I wonder, just how many times one may have swallowed a a pellet or three while eating game birds. Or a few fragments from deer in that steak you just finished off? Guess what? Unless one has a serious problem with their insides, those pellets a or fragments will pass though before any harm can be done. Birds can't do that. Pellets/fragments end up in their crop and they have no way to eliminate them. That's why steel shot is required for waterfowl although a crop full of steel BBs can't be much better for their digestive systems.

One problem with monometal bullets is finding one that will shoot reasonably accurate in a given rifle. My .35 Whelen does very well with the 225 gr. TSX. However a .257 Roberts and three 7x57s plus a .280 Remington have all been accuracy disasters with TSX bullets of appropriate weight. Trying to find a load that works during this shortage gets to be very expensive. Me? I'll stick to the good old copper and lead bullets for as long as I can. The ecofreaks can go pound sand.
Paul B.
 

buckeyeshooter

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I use Barnes X style for game larger than deer. Generally, you can't tell the difference between 'standard' and premium bullets on deer. My favorite deer bullet is the Sierra .308 165 grain Gameking.
 

RSIno1

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golferboy426 said:
windmills kill FAR more raptors, waterfowl and migrating birds and CA Condors than lead projectile fragments...Maybe ban leading causes first

True but it is CA where anything green is treated godlike and guns are only used by Satan's spawn. DDT was the cause of the near demise of the CA Condor and many other species. Lead wasn't a proven problem and DDT long banned was still causing thin shell problems in 2015.
I can see lead shot causing problems lying around in waterfowl areas but there aren't enough bullets shot in 100s of seasons that would poison the area where game is shot with rifles.
 

wolfsong

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Having no choice in the matter because I live and hunt in California, I use Barnes copper bullets for my rifles and my field sidearms. I've taken deer, feral hogs and a bear with them. All one shot kills, down in their tracks. They perform wonderfully. The few I recovered that weren't through-and-throughs penetrated and expanded as advertised. I haven't noticed any significant meat damage increase using copper over lead. A little pricey, yes, even when hand loading. Around $1.50 each for my 30.30s & 30.06s, about $1.25 for my .357s. Not for plinking, that's for sure!

Politics aside, I like them..
 

FergusonTO35

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Winchester has a line of lead free hunting rounds that are semi-reasonably priced, I would give those a try. The price of Sierra and Nosler lead core bullets is right up there with non-lead slugs these days anyhow.
 

Rick Courtright

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Paul B said:
There's a lot of truth in that comment. While lead was found in the crops of some dead condors, they also found bits of tin foil, tabs from beer and soda pop cans and other bits of shiny material. There used to be a thread on this site IIRC where X-rqy photos were shown proving that other than lead materials were in the birds crops.

Hi,

Unfortunately, I wasn't smart enough to copy and save these two pictures but they're stuck in my head.

The first shows several CA condors sitting on the edge of an abandoned Forest Service building from the early 1940s. What little paint was left on it was lead based, and those birds were trying their darnedest to eat every bit of it! Kinda like malnourished inner city kids eating paint off of tenement walls.

The second shows an x-ray of the crop of a dead CA condor chick. It may be one of the pictures Paul B refers to. There's quite a bit of tracking involved with each of these birds they release in the wild, including nesting attempts, nesting success, nesting failures and on and on. So this chick died in the nest and its body was retrieved in one of these tracking checks. This chick looked like it was stuffed to the gills: its crop was quite distended with whatever it had been eating. The x-ray, and subsequent necropsy showed the bird was full of "shiny stuff" like screws, nails, nuts, washers and just bits and pieces. As I recall, it was all ferrous based (iron/steel) and I don't recall seeing anything in the report of lead being found in the bird. Or any "real" food, either.

Reports such as Contender provided his town council folks never seem to support the noisemakers' positions, but it's hard to get a politician to read them without having a nice sized check attached, and the minute that happens "good" science goes out the window... and then we're stuck with the bad stuff.

Rick C
 

The Norseman

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Black Hills of South Dakota
The new Hornady CX is what I'm waiting for, hopefully
on store shelves this summer. I'll be reloading for
Elk and Deer.

I've recently become more interested in monolith bullets.
To me they are interesting.

Their expansion upon impact seems appropriate, they
retain 98% weight, and don't fragment as much.

Potential problems; incorrect barrel rifling twist,
incompatibility with rifle magazine, and dangerous
to whatever is behind the target.

Are the Monolith Bullets better, that is a very subjective
question. One thing I do know is, animals don't wear
body armor, and bullet placement is King.

The Best to you and your Endeavors.
 
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