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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:29 pm 
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Blackhawk

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:04 pm
Posts: 831
Location: MN
Does anyone load the Missouri Bullet works "Keith" style bullet in their 44 special at 900-1000? I'm curious if that bullet will be so hard as to cause a lead problem at those speeds. I read in another post that at those speeds, bullets at Brinell 15-18 will lead up like mad..... I hope not as I just bought 1000!

So... do tell.

This is the one I mean:

http://www.missouribullet.com/details.p ... &keywords=

Thanks! I was going to load some up with about 7.5 gr of Unique


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:37 am 
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Buckeye

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:01 am
Posts: 1458
Location: Kansas
ShortBBL wrote:
Does anyone load the Missouri Bullet works "Keith" style bullet in their 44 special at 900-1000? I'm curious if that bullet will be so hard as to cause a lead problem at those speeds. I read in another post that at those speeds, bullets at Brinell 15-18 will lead up like mad..... I hope not as I just bought 1000!

So... do tell.

This is the one I mean:

http://www.missouribullet.com/details.p ... &keywords=

Thanks! I was going to load some up with about 7.5 gr of Unique


I have tried them at both 15 and 18 BNH. They both leaded the $#it out of my barrel. However, MoBullet is a great company to deal with. They'll have your order to you in less than a week. AND they were extremely accurate bullets.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:25 am 
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Blackhawk

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:04 pm
Posts: 831
Location: MN
Jayhawkhuntclub wrote:
ShortBBL wrote:
Does anyone load the Missouri Bullet works "Keith" style bullet in their 44 special at 900-1000? I'm curious if that bullet will be so hard as to cause a lead problem at those speeds. I read in another post that at those speeds, bullets at Brinell 15-18 will lead up like mad..... I hope not as I just bought 1000!

So... do tell.

This is the one I mean:

http://www.missouribullet.com/details.p ... &keywords=

Thanks! I was going to load some up with about 7.5 gr of Unique


I have tried them at both 15 and 18 BNH. They both leaded the $#it out of my barrel. However, MoBullet is a great company to deal with. They'll have your order to you in less than a week. AND they were extremely accurate bullets.


So, they will lead the Sh*t out of it, but at least I'll get the bullets delivered fast? LOL.... great news!!

So who can suggest a decent maker of the 240-255 Keith style that won't Lead the sh*t out of it?

:shock:

Also... what CAN I do with these lead creating monsters? Are they any good for a 44 mag which would be loaded hotter or will that too cause leading? I thought I did my research before I bought.... guess not. Ouch!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:27 am 
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Hawkeye
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Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 7100
Location: IL,USA
ShortBBL wrote:
Does anyone load the Missouri Bullet works "Keith" style bullet in their 44 special at 900-1000? I'm curious if that bullet will be so hard as to cause a lead problem at those speeds. I read in another post that at those speeds, bullets at Brinell 15-18 will lead up like mad..... I hope not as I just bought 1000!

So... do tell.

This is the one I mean:

http://www.missouribullet.com/details.p ... &keywords=

Thanks! I was going to load some up with about 7.5 gr of Unique


ShortBBL,

Why they call them that I do not know, but those bullets are not Keith SWCs. They are a typical machine cast bevel based SWC. The problem with this is three fold.
First> They are generally sized to the "traditional" grove diameter which rarely fits the throats of the revolvers they are used in.

Second> The bevel base acts as a funnel for the powder gasses to flow around the bullet base, softening the bullet and causing leading.

Third> Most of them are way too hard to expand to seal the throats witch exacerbates the problems caused by the bevel base.

NOTE: Not everyone has problems with this type of bullet. I had problems with them in every revolver, in every caliber, in every bullet nose configuration I tried.
The ONLY place I've gotten good results from the bevel base bullets is in my lever guns. For some reason they work very well there.
However due to them being leading fiends in my revolvers I refuse to purchase bevel based bullets any more.

Joe

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:53 am 
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Blackhawk

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:04 pm
Posts: 831
Location: MN
Thanks. I think I'll try some Cast Performance.... Expensive but good I guess!???

I'm all ears as to which bullets shoot good in these guns and won't lead them up bad. I was going to load 7.5 gr of Unique.

Thanks guys!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Hunter

Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 2865
Location: Colorado Front Range
I've used LOTS of Missouri bullets for bullseye in my 1911 45acp. They shoot great and don't lead the barrel, except for just a bit ahead of the chamber. And, I shoot a minimum of 180 rounds for each match. BHN is 12 for 750fps bullseye loads.

I don't load 44spl, but I do load lasercast 240swc for full-house 44mag loads. The only way I was able to not have them lead the barrel, was to push them hard with H110. Most people think that this would have melted the base of the bullet, but the lasercast are BHN22 or so, and have proven to work best at full-house loads. Go figure.

At your BHN18, I would think your suggested load of Unique, should work well. You may have to work up from there, within safe limits of course. 18 is getting reasonably hard. Maybe some HS6 burning-rate powder?

Let us know what you come up with.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:09 pm 
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Hunter
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Location: Montana 'Merica
There is a big difference in 1000 FPS versus 750 FPS.

Bevel bases will pretty much always lead unless you have a baby butt smooth barrel. You can polish it with JB Borepaste, or you can firelap it with a kit from Beartooth Bullets. I also highly recommend Marshall's Beartooth Bullets for a true Keith, as the CPs are NOT true Keiths either.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:01 pm 
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Hunter

Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 2865
Location: Colorado Front Range
mattsbox99 wrote:
There is a big difference in 1000 FPS versus 750 FPS...


Agreed. As there is also a large difference between BHN12 and 18. I was just trying to make some relative comparison between the very soft bullet I shoot at low velocities for bullseye (BHN12 - 750fps) and a mid-hard bullet at medium velocities (BHN18 - 1000fps). In theory, this should be able to work. This would also correlate to my 44Mag Lasercast loads (BHN22 - 1500fps), which do no leading at all, in a Ruger Blackhawk.

This bullet may have a sweet spot to where it works, or it may not work at all. I'm not sure, as I've not shot this particular bullet, and obviously I don't have the original poster's gun to test with.

I've also taken my 44 revolver and tightened it with a BM basepin, and a Powers oversize pawl, while fitting it tightly to the pawl with a set of range rods and brass in the chambers. It's now lined up as if it were line-bored.

This may also have something to do with the lasercast loads that shoot so well out of my gun. Just a thought...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:13 pm 
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Buckeye

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:01 am
Posts: 1513
Location: Benton City, WA
I have had severe leading with OT Laser Cast bullets when used with Unique for 1000 fps loads. They were just as bad at lower velocities. These are bevel base bullets at 22 BHN I believe. I have tried other custom cast plain based bullets with the same load at about 18 BHN with leading as well.

Both of these bullets performed with great results when using full loads of W296. They liked much higher pressure with slow burning powder.

So for me, I am now looking for some softer bullets for the mid level loads.

I guess I should add that my Blackhawk has had the barrel slugged (.451) and the chambers reamed....so it is OK.....the problem seems to be matching the bullet hardness with the correct powder and pressures. These bullets were sized to .452.

So, you may not have the wrong bullet, you will just have to tailor the load to make it work.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:37 pm 
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Buckeye
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Posts: 1233
Location: Just a Smidge Outside of Kansas City, MO
I've gotten them up to your low end...I've not had trouble with leading. I use the less hard of the two offered.

I have not felt the need to drive them harder.

I like MO Bullets...but I'm rarely sending lead bullets down any of my guns faster than 850 fps.

Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:16 pm 
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Bearcat

Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:01 am
Posts: 3
Location: North Carolina
I've had some sucess with forcing a gas check onto the bevel with a lee sizer. Most times they stay sometimes they don't. But you can't crimp the case mouth much past straight.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:34 pm 
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Buckeye
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Posts: 1359
Location: Rock Ridge, Wyoming
ShortBBL-

Since you have a thousand bullets, try using some Lee Liquid Alox on them. I think that most of the problems with leading are caused by all the hard crayon stuff they use on them. I do not have any leading with Mo. Bullets with 7.5g unique in my .44 Spec. since I started using Alox.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:23 pm 
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Blackhawk

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:04 pm
Posts: 831
Location: MN
twobisquit wrote:
ShortBBL-

Since you have a thousand bullets, try using some Lee Liquid Alox on them. I think that most of the problems with leading are caused by all the hard crayon stuff they use on them. I do not have any leading with Mo. Bullets with 7.5g unique in my .44 Spec. since I started using Alox.


Thanks.... worth a try unless I can sell these to somebody who wants to shoot them much faster than I.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:19 pm 
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Hunter
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Posts: 4968
Location: Montana 'Merica
hutchman wrote:
I have had severe leading with OT Laser Cast bullets when used with Unique for 1000 fps loads. They were just as bad at lower velocities. These are bevel base bullets at 22 BHN I believe. I have tried other custom cast plain based bullets with the same load at about 18 BHN with leading as well.




This is a classic case of a bore constriction effectively swaging the bullet down and then letting it bounce around for the rest of the bore. I bet they weren't very accurate either. Clean that bore up with a firelapping kit or JB Borepaste. The JB is $12 and you can do 100 bores with one jar. You will be amazed at the results.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:31 am 
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Blackhawk

Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 657
Location: Ohio
I agree with Marlin1881... try a different powder.. Like HS-6 or something
slower burning. I've not found a bevel base having anything to do with
leading its always the powder burn rate vs. the bullet hardness.

Hutchman, "matching the bullet hardness with the correct powder and pressures" that says it all !
The softer they are .. the slower you shoot them a faster burning powder.

I too shoot Lasercast & Penn's at 1400+ with H-110 and no leading..
but using Unique with them will smear lead all the way through the barrel.

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