What is 44 Long Colt ammo??

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I recently saw some 44 Long Colt ammo at a local gun store that was made by Ultra Max Ammunition.
My questions are, Does anyone know what the diameter of the bullet would be? .427?,.429? or maybe .452?
And can this ammo be used in a 44 Special or a 44 Magnum? or is a 44 Long Colt something different?
 

stevemb

Hunter
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It is again being loading. For the CAS and SASS folks. I've seen in print where it, and the .44 Russian can be used in .44mag/.44spec chambers. I do not know this for a fact. Like the .44-40, it may be of .429-ish diameter or .427. If possible, you will need to clean chambers really well, so as to not build up a ridge short of the factories. I guess I'd prefer to load down the round chambered, with Trail Boss, etc., rather than play with the older Colt round. Only, IMHO. stevemb
 
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Thanks for the replies.
I was just courious as I have never heard of this round before.
So, I read that an older 44 Long Colt is really a 45 caliber, as the black powder guns are. but it appears that it sort of turned into a true 44 Cal. over time?
Must have started as a black powder load.
Boy, there is always something new to learn in this hobby of revolvers.
Jeff
 

stevemb

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Allrighty then, went to the source. John Taffin's Book of the .44. Duh, shoulda done that yesterday for ya, its within reach of where I'm sitting here. Original .44 Colt round had a heeled bullet, like a .22 rimfire. Modern loaded .44 Colt probably uses shorter .44spec brass and does use .429 bullets. It is not "long" Colt, anymore than the .45 is not "long" Colt. Just .44 Colt, and .45 Colt. stevemb
 

Driftwood Johnson

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To quote Mike Venturino in Shooting Sixguns of the Old West, 44 Colt is important because " it was Colt's first successful metallic cartridge."

The 44 Colt was developed in 1871, two years before the 45 Colt was developed. 44 Colt was developed specifically for the cartridge conversion models of the 44 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers. Once the White patent expired around 1869, Smith and Wesson no longer had a monopoly on cartridge firing revolvers with chambers bored through to accept cartridges. The Single Action Army was not ready for prime time yet, so Colt developed a cartridge based on the 44 caliber balls or conical bullets that were fired in 44 C&B revolvers. The result was a cartridge with a bullet the same diameter as the case (heeled bullet). It was just long enough to fit into the chambers of the conversion revolvers that were being produced before the SAA went into production in 1873.

This photo shows, left to right, a 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge, a Remington-UMC 44 Colt, a
WRA (Winchester Repeating Arms) 44 Colt, and a 45 Colt cartridge. Yes, these are all antique cartridges. Near as I can measure, the diameter of the bullets in the 44 Colt cartridges is on the order of about .445. Yes, they are heeled bullets, so the diameter just ahead of the cartridge case mouth is the diameter that bore against the lands of the barrel.

44RF44Cumc44Cwra45C.jpg


Because of the difficulty of loading heeled bullets, and the scarcity of revolvers chambered for them, modern 44 Colt cartridges such as those made by Starline, or loaded by Black Hills, use the same standard .429 bullets that 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum cartridges use, with the appropriate .429 barrels. Of course, these are not heeled bullets, they are standard bullets that fit inside the case. No, 44 Colt is not the same length as 44 Special, it is slightly shorter. If you look closely, you will see that the two 44 Colt cartidges have brass that is not quite the same length. The REM-UMC case is approx 1.075 long, the WRAC case is approx 1.125 long. I don't have a photo comparing 44 Colt to 44 Special, but SAMMI spec for 44 Special brass is 1.160 long.

Some of the modern Conversion revolvers made by Uberti and chambered for 44 Colt will in fact accept 44 Special brass, some will not and will only accept 44 Colt brass.

P.S. Yes, 44 Russians can be fired in any 44 Special or 44 Mag revolver. 44 Russian is the ancestor of both of them. Same bullet diameter, different case lengths. I fire 44 Russians in a First Gen Colt of mine that was re-barreled and re-cylindered to 44 Special all the time.

For comparison, here is another photo. Left to right the cartridges are 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American,44 Henry Rimfire, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt. Yes, a couple of these are my reloads, not antique cartridges. I guess I need to take another photo and include 44 Colt.

4440_44Sp_44R_44Am_44H_45Sch_45C-1.jpg
 
Joined
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Well, theres a couple more I never heard of. A 44 S&W American and a 44 Henry Rimfire.
Having enjoyed reading some of Mike Venturino articles in magazines, I went ahead and ordered a copy of Shooting Sixguns of the Old West, should be some good reading.
I think that Mr. Venturino is the only person to say that there actually was a 45 "short" Colt as he writes
in the latest issue of Handloader.
Thanks for all the info as I find this stuff very interesting, Jeff
 

Driftwood Johnson

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Mike has written four books about Guns of the Old West, Shooting Colt Single Actions, Shooting Sixguns of the Old West, Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West, and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. They are all top notch, have a lot if information about shooting the guns and loading the cartridges, both with Smokeless and Black Powder. There is a bit of overlap in the first three books, but they are all good. I do not believe they are all in print at this time.

Now a little bit of history. About 1854 Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson entered into a partnership to develop a repeating firearm based on the Hunt and Jennings patents. The middle of the 19th Century was a revolutionary time in firearm development because metallic cartridges were being developed. Up until this time, for centuries, almost all firearms had been muzzle loaders. In order to reload, loose powder had to be dumped down the barrel, followed by a projectile and wadding. Then the firearm had to be primed, either with loose powder in the lock, or a cap in the case of percussion arms. The only way to have a quick repeat shot was with multiple barrels, or multiple chambers.

But self contained cartridges were being developed by the middle of the 19th Century. One such cartridge design was the Hunt Rocketball. It was basically just a hollow bullet, stuffed with Black Powder, and covered with foil at the rear. There was also a primer held in place in the rear.

Here is a patent drawing of a Rocketball.

rocketball.jpg


Self contained metallic cartridges such as the Rocketball made it possible to design repeating firearms; firearms that had mechanisms that loaded a fresh cartridge into the chamber by working the action of the gun. This made repeating firearms practical. Picking up where Hunt and Jennings left off, Smith and Wesson developed a lever action firearm with a tubular magazine under the barrel. Working the lever brought a fresh Rocketball up from the magazine and stuffed it into the chamber. Working the lever also cocked the hammer, so the gun was ready to fire the next shot. An article in Scientific American compared the volume of fire available from such a firearm as 'Volcanic' and the name stuck.

The Volcanic was produced in both carbine and handgun form. Starting to look familiar?

Volcaniclever_zps898f2fba.jpg


36612_zpsb1a8ae2c.jpg


Unfortunately, the Rocketball ammunition could not carry enough powder to generate much energy, and the Volcanic design was a financial failure. But an enterprising shirtmaker from New Haven named Oliver Winchester was looking to get into the firearms business. He invested heavily in the Volcanic company, moved its factory from Norwich Connecticut to New Haven and renamed the company the New Haven Arms Company. He also brought on board an accomplished firearms designer named Benjamin Tyler Henry to work as plant superintendent. About 1857 Winchester directed Henry to come up with a better cartridge than the Rocketball. By this time Smith and Wesson had severed their connection with lever action firearms and started a new company in Springfield Massachusetts to manufacture revolvers.

By this time, cartridge technology had moved forward enough to make rimfire cartridges possible. A rimfire cartridge could contain more gunpowder than a simple hollow bullet. So Winchester directed Henry to come up with a rimfire cartridge that would hold more powder and surpass the Volcanic's anemic ammunition. Henry's first effort was a 38 caliber cartridge, the same caliber as most of the Rocketball guns. But Winchester had the foresight to direct him to come up with a 44 caliber cartridge. The result was the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge.

That brings us back to this photo, with the 44 Henry Cartridge on the left. The case was made of copper, as were many metallic cartridges at this time. It had a 216 grain heeled bullet and contained 26 grains of Black Powder.

44RF44Cumc44Cwra45C.jpg


Once the cartridge had been settled on, a new gun had to be designed to fire it. The Volcanic design was too small, and it had no provision to eject an empty cartridge case, because the Rocketball ammunition was caseless. The result was the 1860 Henry rifle. Winchester honored Henry by allowing his name on the patents, even though the New Haven Arms Company actually owned the patents.

The Henry rifle was much more massive than the Volcanic. I have held a Volcanic, and it was more like a boy's rifle, it did not feel like a 'real' rifle. The 1860 Henry was big. It had a 24" barrel and weighed 9 1/4 pounds. It held 15 rounds of ammunition in the magazine. This was "that damned Yankee rifle that they load on Sunday and shoot all week!"

Henry-rifle_zps5465c1f8.jpg





The 1860 Henry was only produced from 1862 until 1866. In 1866 Oliver Winchester had a falling out with B.T. Henry. The name of the company was changed to the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, and a new model was introduced, the first true Winchester. It had the same bronze frame as the Henry, but it featured a side loading gate and a wooden forearm. It was still chambered for the 44 Henry Rimfire Cartridge. This is the rifle that was nicknamed 'Yellowboy' by the Indians. Officially, the Yellowboy was known as the Improved Henry, but eventually it became known as the Model 1866.

66-014431-01_zpsf2a03717.jpg




**************


Meanwhile, Smith and Wesson had not been idle. They introduced their first revolver, a tiny 7 shot 22 rimfire gun, in 1857. They had gained the rights to the Rollin White patent that allowed them to bore a revolver cylinder through for cartridges. Colt, Remington, and all the rest were restricted to making percussion revolvers all through the Civil War because S&W defended the White patent so vigorously. S&W made 'Tip Up' revolvers up until about 1869, when the White patent was due to expire. Up until then, all the revolvers S&W had made had been 22 Rimfire or 32 Rimfire guns. They experimented with 44 calibers, but the Tip Up design was not up to it.

This photo shows, top to bottom, a S&W Model Number Two, Model Number One-and-a-Half, and a Model Number One. The top two are 32 Rimfire, the bottom only chambers 22 shorts.

ThreeTipUps02_zps974581e9.jpg


They were called Tip Ups because to reload you undid a latch at the bottom of the barrel and rotated the barrel up, like this. Then you pulled out the cylinder and popped the empties out with the rod that sticks out in front. You reloaded, popped the cylinder back in place, rotated the barrel down and you were ready to shoot again.

No1TipUpopen_zps17926697.jpg


But by 1869 the White patent was about to expire. S&W was sure that Colt and Remington and everybody else who had been forced to sit on their hands while the White patent was in force would flood the market with cartridge revolvers. So they decided to come up with something revolutionary.

This is what they came up with, a massive six shot, 44 caliber revolver. At first it was called the Model No. 3 Single Action, but for reasons that will soon become obvious, it eventually became known as the American Model. It was introduced in 1870.

11025208_5_zps4f771678.jpg


Unlike the Tip Ups, the big 44 was reloaded by undoing a latch at the top of the barrel and rotating the barrel down, not up. Because it 'broke' at the top of the frame, this new style of gun became known as a Top Break. But the really advanced feature was that upon opening the gun, the extractor automatically rose up and extracted the empty shells. Do it vigorously and they were ejected. This photo is of a similar revolver, a S&W New Model Number Three. The gun is half open and the extractor is starting to extract the empties.

unloading.jpg


All of which finally brings us to this photo. Left to right, the cartridges are 44 S&W American, 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum. The 44 American cartridge employs a heeled bullet. Heeled bullets were still very common at this time. As a matter of fact, the type of bullet we are familiar with, that is inserted inside the case, had not yet been developed. The 44 S&W American bullet weighed 225 grains and the case held 25 grains of Black Powder. As with all heeled bullet cartridges, the bullet is the same diameter as the case.

44AM44R44SP44MAG.jpg


To complete the story, we jump forward a few years. Some visiting Russian dignitaries had been on a hunting expedition with Buffalo Bill, and had seen the big S&W 44 Top Break revolvers. They were very impressed with the design and approached S&W about a contract to provide the Russian government with revolvers. But they did not like the 44 S&W American cartridge. All heeled bullets carried the bullet lube on the outside of the bullet, where it would contact the bore of the barrel. That is why modern 22s have a waxy coating on them. But in Black Powder days bullet lube was soft and gooey. It attracted all kinds of contamination, like dirt and grit. The Russians specified to S&W that they wanted a slightly different cartridge, with a bullet that inserted inside the case. The lubrication would be carried in grooves around the bullet, but the grooves would be completely inside the case.

That is how the 44 Russian cartridge was developed. Even though the outside of the case was 44 caliber, in order to insert the bullet inside the case, bullet diameter was reduced to .429. Later, when the 44 Special and 44 Magnum cartridges were developed, they shared that same .429 diameter. And just about all modern cartridges today still use bullets that insert inside the case. The 44 Russian was the first.

By the way, the first revolvers that S&W made for the Russians looked exactly like the American Model, except that the rifling groove diameter was reduced to .429 and the cylinders incorporated a step in the chambers, for the smaller diameter of the bullet compared to shell diameter. Just like all chambers do today.

The 2nd and 3rd model Russians incorporated a different grip design, and the distinctive spur on the trigger guard. These were features the Russians specified.

Russian02.jpg
 

Jimbo357mag

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A little more on the S&W #3 and the 44 Russian cartridge.

http://www.sam-hane.com/sass/schofield/history.htm

quote> Smith and Wesson's biggest supporters, however, were not who you would expect. In 1871 General Alexander Gorloff, the Russian Military Attach' in Washington D.C. was so impressed, that the Russian Government eventually ordered over 131,000 of S&W Model No. 3s. These "Russian Models" had some minor changes, including a change to an inside lubed cartridge. Large numbers of Smith and Wesson No. 3s were also bought by the governments of Turkey and Japan in the late 1800s.

In 1871, Grand Duke Alexis of Russia came to the U.S. to check on the pistols they had ordered. He was presented with a fancy engraved No.3 by the factory that cost over $400 to make. That was a huge sum of money in those days. Alexis also went on a buffalo hunting trip (paid for by the U.S. Government) with Buffalo Bill Cody, General Phil Sheridan, and George Armstrong Custer. While he was on this hunting trip, he was impressed with Cody's skill with his S&W No. 3's. <end quote
 
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