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 Post subject: LC9 trigger work?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Bearcat

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:46 pm
Posts: 17
I like my LC9 except for the really long trigger pull. I know some places do custom gun smithing and "trigger jobs". I shot a friends Jiminez arms .380 and the pull was short and light and I was able to shoot it much more accurately. I have no real interest in buying new gun, and would like to "improve" the one I own.

Has anyone had experience with a gunsmith who can shorten and maybe lighten the trigger pull on an LC9?

Is this even possible?

Thanks for the input.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Buckeye

Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:01 am
Posts: 1066
Location: P R, MN, USA
You could lighten the pull, but there isn't much you can do for the length of stroke.

That Jennings/Davis/Bryco/etc is a whole different animal.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:53 am 
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Bearcat

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:46 pm
Posts: 17
s4s4u wrote:
You could lighten the pull, but there isn't much you can do for the length of stroke.

That Jennings/Davis/Bryco/etc is a whole different animal.


I had no idea about the history of the Jenings/Davis/Bryco firearms. I googled it an found an interesting summary here:

http://bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com/bryco.html


As far as the LC9, I was looking at the Burwell Gunsmithing website (http://burwellguns.com/Services.htm) and noticed that they describe various trigger mods for the M&P which say they will:

"1. Pre-travel adjustment- this moves the trigger bar back against the drop safety. This removes as much of the pre-travel as possible while maintaining all the safeties.

2. Welded over-travel- I remove the over-travel by welding up a travel stop inside the gun, this will make the trigger break further away from the frame. This works very well for people with a long reaching trigger finger.
"

I have sent them a message and am waiting to see if they can do a similar thing to an LC9.

Why can you reduce trigger travel on other guns but not an LC9? I'm no expert, that's why I'm asking questions here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:22 am 
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Buckeye

Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:01 am
Posts: 1066
Location: P R, MN, USA
I am not up on the M&P, but the LC9 is a DAO gun and the trigger stroke has to do all the work. It needs to be of a certain length rto do that. Not saying that it can't be shorter, but I would think that Ruger would have gotten all they could out of it.

I have a Davis 32ACP, which is similar to the Jimenez 380. Basically a striker fired single action pistol. A pain to cock and the safety is nearly impossible to operate in a hurry, not a good carry piece IMO.

How do you like your LC9, other than the trigger stroke?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:17 am 
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Bearcat

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:46 pm
Posts: 17
s4s4u wrote:
I am not up on the M&P, but the LC9 is a DAO gun and the trigger stroke has to do all the work. It needs to be of a certain length rto do that. Not saying that it can't be shorter, but I would think that Ruger would have gotten all they could out of it.

I have a Davis 32ACP, which is similar to the Jimenez 380. Basically a striker fired single action pistol. A pain to cock and the safety is nearly impossible to operate in a hurry, not a good carry piece IMO.

How do you like your LC9, other than the trigger stroke?


I do know that the M&P is a striker fired gun. I'm not sure if its DAO though. Like you said, the LC9 is hammer fired and DAO.

I did hear back from Dan Burwell and he said he does not work on LC9's.

At first I thought I liked the idea of the long trigger pull. I saw it as protection against accidental discharges. "Well, there's no way you're gonna fire this thing by accident! That's one long trigger pull!" But as I said before, it makes it hard for me to shoot accurately, and I tend to pull the gun down when squeezing the trigger, and i shoot low. I've shot nearly 600 rounds so far and I guess I just need more practice.

My brother on the other hand, his very first time shooting any handgun, shot the LC9 very well. Much better than I did. I guess he's a natural. I must say I'm a bit jealous of his innate ability.

Other than the trigger, I love the LC9. Its the right size & weight for concealed carry, I like that it has a manual safety, and it has never malfunctioned at all. Like I said, about 600 rounds through it and never had a hiccup. No FTF's or FTE's, or stovepipes. Actually, the extractor throws the shells very far, almost 10 feet back and to my right. It does make picking up the spent brass a challenge, its hard to find all the casings on a gravel surface.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:44 am 
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Buckeye

Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:01 am
Posts: 1066
Location: P R, MN, USA
Trigger control in DA is a challenge, and it takes practice. Dry firing can help immensely. Just pick a spot on the wall and practice squeezing the trigger fully all the while keeping the front sight on the spot. You must separate your index finger from the rest of your hand, mentally. Use two hands to give stability as you learn to disconnect your index finger. If you don't keep the front sight on the target throughout the stroke you will miss, plain and simple. The laser boresighters are great tools for this drill, stick it in the muzzle and keep the dot on the spot. Not sure if the LC9 is long enough for one of those tho.

I take a 12x12 tarp with when I shoot autos and let the brass fall where it may. Pick up the corners and drop in a pale at the end of the day.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:14 pm 
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Bearcat

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:46 pm
Posts: 17
s4s4u wrote:
Trigger control in DA is a challenge, and it takes practice. Dry firing can help immensely. Just pick a spot on the wall and practice squeezing the trigger fully all the while keeping the front sight on the spot. You must separate your index finger from the rest of your hand, mentally. Use two hands to give stability as you learn to disconnect your index finger. If you don't keep the front sight on the target throughout the stroke you will miss, plain and simple. The laser boresighters are great tools for this drill, stick it in the muzzle and keep the dot on the spot. Not sure if the LC9 is long enough for one of those tho.



I hear different things about dry firing. Some say you should never do it. Some say it really doesn't hurt much. I've dry fired a few times but I haven't gone wild with it because "you're not supposed to dry fire". I really don't know the reason why though.

I've also heard of some guys buying "Snap caps" to dry fire with. Is this necessary?


s4s4u wrote:

I take a 12x12 tarp with when I shoot autos and let the brass fall where it may. Pick up the corners and drop in a pale at the end of the day.


This is a good idea. Thanks for the tip.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Buckeye

Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:01 am
Posts: 1066
Location: P R, MN, USA
It never hurts to use snap caps, but if a gun will break when firing dry it will break when loaded as well. I will never own a gun that whines about being fired dry.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Single-Sixer

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:02 pm
Posts: 143
I'll tell you one thing for sure, dry-firing (i use A-Zoom snapcaps just to be safe) has improved my accuracy with the LC9 immensely! The first time out i couldnt get a real solid group the first 80 rounds so i stopped and loaded up a snap cap and just practiced dry-firing for 5 min. at the target. I was noticing that i was jerking the gun to the right A LOT (im a right handed shooter with small girl hands) and from the factory my rear sight was to the left just a bit and not center so that didnt help either. But i fixed the sight, then started working on the trigger pull.
I noticed that if i used MORE finger on the trigger (closer to the joint than pad) when dry-firing i didn't jerk the gun at all and it wa staying completely level. I then shot the last 20 rounds and at ~15yds. got ~3 1/2 in. groupings with 7 shots on 2 out of the last 3 mags, jerked one on the last 6 ;(
Anyways that was ~1 month ago, i've put another ~500 rounds through it since then and have dry-fired it at least 2k times probably, and im getting consistant 2 1/2 in. groups at 21ft. and at 60ft. i'm averaging ~4in. groupings. The accuracy of this gun, once i got the trigger pull down is actually VERY impressive, i never thought this gun would be this accurate with such a short barrel. Not to mention now when i shoot my full-size/compact handguns i've gotten much better even with those because this gun is a challenge to shoot since it's so short and hard to line up perfectly, so it actually improved my shooting with my other guns too!
Some people say this gun is too big to carry in the front pocket, but IMO it's perfect for front pocket carry and i'm not the biggest guy (5'11 170). On a couple of my jeans i can't draw too fast because it's hard to get the gun and your hand out with a good grip on it fast, but most of my jeans and all my cargo pants work just fine and with a regular desantis pocket holster it hides the print of the gun completely and i can draw it almost as fast as my IWB Supertuck FNP-40.. However i picked this gun up for summer time carry when wearing shorts, etc. because it's super small and doesnt print at all.
Sorry for getting off subject just wanted to throw out my thoughts on the gun and how the trigger worked in my case and i kinda went off on a rant but anyways yeah i wouldnt mind if there was a way to make the trigger break a bit sooner either, it would be nice IMO but i have gotten used to the trigger pull on it now.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:32 am 
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Single-Sixer

Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 10:33 am
Posts: 164
Location: Aville NC
Alot of smiths won't touch them due to the long heavy trigger pull being the main safety, no oops it went off cause you gave it a hair trigger lawsuits type thing. It could be shortened and lightened relatively easy but the liability is huge. Under life or death stress you won't notice the heavy pull but you might drag the gun off target clinching it to pull the trigger or not release it enough to reset the trigger. Honestly I think the trigger pull is much less of an issue than the tiny size of the pistol, hard to get a good grip on it. That will deny repeatable accuracy to most more than a long heavy trigger.
Never know what enough interest might produce though...
Eric

_________________
SR9 SR40 and SR9c/40c performance parts source
LC9 performance parts source
www.gallowayprecision.com
eric@gallowayprecision.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Single-Sixer

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:02 pm
Posts: 143
Egalloway wrote:
Under life or death stress you won't notice the heavy pull but you might drag the gun off target clinching it to pull the trigger or not release it enough to reset the trigger. Honestly I think the trigger pull is much less of an issue than the tiny size of the pistol, hard to get a good grip on it. That will deny repeatable accuracy to most more than a long heavy trigger.
Never know what enough interest might produce though...
Eric

Well lucky for me i have small girl hands so i can basically get a full grip on the LC9 without the finger plate extension. Ys it does help noticeably, but i can shoot it just fine without it.
I just wanted to point out though that learning the trigger on this gun is everything! There are a lot of people that can shoot the PF9 but can't shoot the LC9 for crap, and it all comes back to the trigger pull. where t breaks, and practice.
You yourself even contradict what you said about the trigger by saying the trigger pull is "under life and death stress you WONT notice the pull," but then you say "but you might drag the gun off target clinching it to pull the trigger, or not releasing it enough to reset."
That my friend is ALL about the trigger in accuracy wwith this gun, if you shoot it like a regular pistol you're going to have problems, this is a gun you have to learn the trigger break and learn how to shoot since it's different genre of gun and when it comes to accuracy, knowing the trigger is basically EVERYTHING!
Like i said before first time out to the range i was all over the place, i stopped and dry-fired for a while until i figured out that i needed o use a bit more finger on the trigger so im pulling more at a straight back motion when the trigger breaks, and AMAZINGLY next time out the gun was shooting to POA whereas i was all over the place before i stopped and dry-fired it, (using snapcaps) once i stopped the jerking after the trigger break and i got it to where i was still holding on target after the trigger broke, i went back out to the range and i was honestly AMAZED at how accurate this little pistol can be once you get it down! Only took me ~600rds. and ~2k dryfires to really learn the gun enough to feel comfortable enough to CC it, but still could get a bit better with some practice but again im proficient enough with it to carry it now.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Single-Sixer

Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 10:33 am
Posts: 164
Location: Aville NC
Stimo3 wrote:
Egalloway wrote:
Under life or death stress you won't notice the heavy pull but you might drag the gun off target clinching it to pull the trigger or not release it enough to reset the trigger. Honestly I think the trigger pull is much less of an issue than the tiny size of the pistol, hard to get a good grip on it. That will deny repeatable accuracy to most more than a long heavy trigger.
Never know what enough interest might produce though...
Eric

Well lucky for me i have small girl hands so i can basically get a full grip on the LC9 without the finger plate extension. Ys it does help noticeably, but i can shoot it just fine without it.
I just wanted to point out though that learning the trigger on this gun is everything! There are a lot of people that can shoot the PF9 but can't shoot the LC9 for crap, and it all comes back to the trigger pull. where t breaks, and practice.
You yourself even contradict what you said about the trigger by saying the trigger pull is "under life and death stress you WONT notice the pull," but then you say "but you might drag the gun off target clinching it to pull the trigger, or not releasing it enough to reset."
That my friend is ALL about the trigger in accuracy wwith this gun, if you shoot it like a regular pistol you're going to have problems, this is a gun you have to learn the trigger break and learn how to shoot since it's different genre of gun and when it comes to accuracy, knowing the trigger is basically EVERYTHING!
Like i said before first time out to the range i was all over the place, i stopped and dry-fired for a while until i figured out that i needed o use a bit more finger on the trigger so im pulling more at a straight back motion when the trigger breaks, and AMAZINGLY next time out the gun was shooting to POA whereas i was all over the place before i stopped and dry-fired it, (using snapcaps) once i stopped the jerking after the trigger break and i got it to where i was still holding on target after the trigger broke, i went back out to the range and i was honestly AMAZED at how accurate this little pistol can be once you get it down! Only took me ~600rds. and ~2k dryfires to really learn the gun enough to feel comfortable enough to CC it, but still could get a bit better with some practice but again im proficient enough with it to carry it now.


Your overthinking this, my statement comes from years of training with very good instructors, and years of training lots of students. I didn't contradict myself but I guess I didn't make myself clear. A small frame DAO pistol like the LC9 is harder to get a grip on, it's smaller. Since girp is directly going to affect accuracy it is critical to have a good grip on it to make the hits needed to use a handgun effectively. Full size pistols are more forgiving on drawstroke and grip due to being bigger, more surface area to purchase on, usually a shorter lighter trigger once your mounted, short reset too. The LC9 and like guns are thinner, shorter grip and have long heavy trigger pulls that require more force to overcome, increasing flinch and clinch, add in adrenline, fear, chaos etc and it really gets harder to do anything. Don't try to make the LC9 a service pistol, it's not, my response was to the OP asking about trigger pull work. I've had lots of requests for work on it. Most people do not understand why it is so long and heavy to pull or long to reset. If your familiar with revolvers you already know why.
Sounds like you learned the most basic skill of working with any firearm after safety, you've learned trigger control, congrads, you would no doubt shoot rings around me with us both using LC9 pistols.
Trigger control along with drawstroke are auto pilot response in fight mode, I tell students 2500-3000 dry draws with trigger pull at the end and your on to a good start for auto pilot. So no you won't notice the heavy long pull under stress, but if your used to standing squared up to a piece of paper, breathe control, squeeze the trigger, all the time in the world, then yes you'll clinch under stress. A trained finger is a trained brain.
I had a customer call me that thought he was a gun fighter with his first pistol, a LC9, he explained how he had watched a few youtube videos and now had the "double tap" down at 7 yards, he could hold them both on a sheet of notebook paper. He then complained the gun would not fire (reset) without releasing the trigger all the way forward but his buddy's glock 19 reset right off the back of the trigger guard... yea it's made that way. He then wanted me to fix his so it reset short like that. No, I didn't. He now has a SR9c, short reset with plenty of safety devices, he is shooting much faster now and doesn't think a double tap is a death ray anymore either.
I have nothing against the LC9 or like sized guns or the dozens and dozens of emails or phone calls for solutions to the trigger problem, just remember they require more practice to be effective due to their smaller size. It's on my list things to do.
Eric

_________________
SR9 SR40 and SR9c/40c performance parts source
LC9 performance parts source
www.gallowayprecision.com
eric@gallowayprecision.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:25 am 
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Single-Sixer

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:02 pm
Posts: 143
Well lucky for me i have small girl hands so i can basically get a full grip on the LC9 without the finger plate extension. Ys it does help noticeably, but i can shoot it just fine without it.
I just wanted to point out though that learning the trigger on this gun is everything! There are a lot of people that can shoot the PF9 but can't shoot the LC9 for crap, and it all comes back to the trigger pull. where t breaks, and practice.
You yourself even contradict what you said about the trigger by saying the trigger pull is "under life and death stress you WONT notice the pull," but then you say "but you might drag the gun off target clinching it to pull the trigger, or not releasing it enough to reset."
That my friend is ALL about the trigger in accuracy wwith this gun, if you shoot it like a regular pistol you're going to have problems, this is a gun you have to learn the trigger break and learn how to shoot since it's different genre of gun and when it comes to accuracy, knowing the trigger is basically EVERYTHING!
Like i said before first time out to the range i was all over the place, i stopped and dry-fired for a while until i figured out that i needed o use a bit more finger on the trigger so im pulling more at a straight back motion when the trigger breaks, and AMAZINGLY next time out the gun was shooting to POA whereas i was all over the place before i stopped and dry-fired it, (using snapcaps) once i stopped the jerking after the trigger break and i got it to where i was still holding on target after the trigger broke, i went back out to the range and i was honestly AMAZED at how accurate this little pistol can be once you get it down! Only took me ~600rds. and ~2k dryfires to really learn the gun enough to feel comfortable enough to CC it, but still could get a bit better with some practice but again im proficient enough with it to carry it now.[/quote]

Egalloway wrote:
Your overthinking this, my statement comes from years of training with very good instructors, and years of training lots of students. I didn't contradict myself but I guess I didn't make myself clear. A small frame DAO pistol like the LC9 is harder to get a grip on, it's smaller. Since girp is directly going to affect accuracy it is critical to have a good grip on it to make the hits needed to use a handgun effectively. Full size pistols are more forgiving on drawstroke and grip due to being bigger, more surface area to purchase on, usually a shorter lighter trigger once your mounted, short reset too. The LC9 and like guns are thinner, shorter grip and have long heavy trigger pulls that require more force to overcome, increasing flinch and clinch, add in adrenline, fear, chaos etc and it really gets harder to do anything. Don't try to make the LC9 a service pistol, it's not, my response was to the OP asking about trigger pull work. I've had lots of requests for work on it. Most people do not understand why it is so long and heavy to pull or long to reset. If your familiar with revolvers you already know why.
Sounds like you learned the most basic skill of working with any firearm after safety, you've learned trigger control, congrads, you would no doubt shoot rings around me with us both using LC9 pistols.
Trigger control along with drawstroke are auto pilot response in fight mode, I tell students 2500-3000 dry draws with trigger pull at the end and your on to a good start for auto pilot. So no you won't notice the heavy long pull under stress, but if your used to standing squared up to a piece of paper, breathe control, squeeze the trigger, all the time in the world, then yes you'll clinch under stress. A trained finger is a trained brain.
I had a customer call me that thought he was a gun fighter with his first pistol, a LC9, he explained how he had watched a few youtube videos and now had the "double tap" down at 7 yards, he could hold them both on a sheet of notebook paper. He then complained the gun would not fire (reset) without releasing the trigger all the way forward but his buddy's glock 19 reset right off the back of the trigger guard... yea it's made that way. He then wanted me to fix his so it reset short like that. No, I didn't. He now has a SR9c, short reset with plenty of safety devices, he is shooting much faster now and doesn't think a double tap is a death ray anymore either.
I have nothing against the LC9 or like sized guns or the dozens and dozens of emails or phone calls for solutions to the trigger problem, just remember they require more practice to be effective due to their smaller size. It's on my list things to do.
Eric

Ok i see what you're saying, i don't have that problem of it being too small for my hands (again, i have small girl hands lol) but i have seen some videos of people with larger hands who have to basically adjust their grip after every shot. Totally agree with you on that and i overlooked it, but now thinking back, i remember watching a video on youtube of Hickok45 shooting the LC9 when it first came out, and if you know him at all or seen any of his videos he's a GREAT shot with just about any gun! He really stressed that the LC9 is definitely a gun you need to LEARN how to shoot.
As far as revolvers go, you're absolutely right if you have a lot of practice with revolvers you'll pick up the trigger pull on the LC9 easier since it's got a long, consistent trigger pull like a lot of revolvers have.
Funny thing is, when im not at the indoor range by my house and get a chance to go to the outdoor range a bit farther away, my friends and i actually set up a little tactical course specifically to get your heart rate up, get you moving around, and shooting from behind cover to make things more realistic. I will say it definitely takes some practice, shooting while on the move/breathing hard/and shooting from behind cover that sometimes gets in your way is totally differnt type of shooting than range shooting, but it's GREAT practice and gives you a better idea of how you'll shoot in a defensive situation since it semi-simulates an attack. Obviously nothing is going to get your adrenaline pumping like it would be if you really were being attacked, but it gives you that muscle memory that you'r talking about, which is why i dry-fired my gun so many times. It gives you the muscle memory so it's more of a reaction than a thought process of what you have to do.

Also, learning how to shoot this little LC9 has also improved my handgun shooting with my other pistols. My LC9 is by far my smallest pistol, and the reason why i bought it (for CC durning summertime in smaller, tighter clothes). After i got proficient enough with it to be comfortable enough to carry it, i went to the range with my FNP-40 again (my EDC gun for all other months) i saw a noticeable improvement in my accuracy with it. I'm thinking since the LC9 is so small and harder to get centered and directly on target, with my bigger FNP-40 i noticed i'm on target quicker now and since the trigger pull is A LOT shorter/lighter i get off my rounds quicker and stay on target much better.

Anyways sorry to the OP for getting off subject. What helped me the MOST in accuracy with this gun was dry-firing it repeatedly. Once you can continuously dry-fire it and keep the sights on target without jerking, you're ready to go to the range and practice with live rounds.
Another drill i like to do is dump 5 dummy rounds into a pile of 50rds. and load the mags with my eyes closed. This way you'll come up on a dummy round and not know it, and this way you'll REALLY see how much you're anticipating the shot. This was another great drill that helped out my accuracy with the LC9 a lot. Again this is a gun you basically have to learn how to shoot. It's similar to other guns, but with how small it is and the trigger pull on it, it's something that you need to practice with to get good at it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:39 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:01 pm
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Now go practice drawing it at night with your trunk lid up and one hand on a bag of groceries. Or better yet, practice while pretending you are filling out a deposit slip at your bank.

The reason I point this out is that many people can become great shots AT THE RANGE, wearing ear protection, following lights and/or written instructions which is fine & dandy. However, it does nothing to prepare them for a rapid weapon acquisition under extreme duress and a rapid mag dump which is most likely what you will need it for if you ever have to use the weapon in self defense. A range habit that many have is shooting once & then rubbernecking to see where they hit. BAD habit for CCW. Practice shooting to lockback as fast as you can while looking at the target and not the sights.

Under these scenarios the long trigger pull won't be a factor.


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