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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:03 pm 
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Bearcat

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Can I use cci small rifle 400 primers in reloading .38 spl and .357 mag? Is there much of a difference compared to regular small pistol primers with these calibers?

-Anna Sophia


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Hawkeye
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annasophia wrote:
Can I use cci small rifle 400 primers in reloading .38 spl and .357 mag? Is there much of a difference compared to regular small pistol primers with these calibers?

-Anna Sophia


I wouldn't. For one thing, too hard for handgun use IMO...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:39 pm 
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I dont know about being too hard...the 357 maxi uses small rifle and it's a blackhawk revolver just like any other. I would think the different pressures would be the main concern. Just stay with the data in the manuals since the people who did all the load development know way more than we do!!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:49 pm 
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Hawkeye
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rugerjunkie wrote:
I dont know about being too hard...the 357 maxi uses small rifle and it's a blackhawk revolver just like any other. I would think the different pressures would be the main concern. Just stay with the data in the manuals since the people who did all the load development know way more than we do!!


Yeah, there are a "few" cartridges where it's appropriate. Besides the .357 Maximum, I'm thinking .221 Fireball and the Hornet...
.22 Jet maybe? Casull...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:55 pm 
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Hawkeye

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Hi,

Agree w/ rugerjunkie: never saw a gun blown up from a "hard" primer, but have seen lots of damage from improper pressure curves. Stick to what the books say and you'll live a happier life, if not possibly a longer one, too?

Rick C


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:47 pm 
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Bucks Owin wrote:
rugerjunkie wrote:
I dont know about being too hard...the 357 maxi uses small rifle and it's a blackhawk revolver just like any other. I would think the different pressures would be the main concern. Just stay with the data in the manuals since the people who did all the load development know way more than we do!!


Yeah, there are a "few" cartridges where it's appropriate. Besides the .357 Maximum, I'm thinking .221 Fireball and the Hornet...
.22 Jet maybe? Casull...


With the Hornet, in fire formed brass, I'm getting between .5 to .75 moa using small pistol primers instead of small rifle. Hogdon lil gun is my go to powder in this cartridge. With small rifle primers the groups were opening up to 1" to 1 1/2"


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:53 am 
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Hawkeye
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Rick Courtright wrote:
Hi,

Agree w/ rugerjunkie: never saw a gun blown up from a "hard" primer, but have seen lots of damage from improper pressure curves. Stick to what the books say and you'll live a happier life, if not possibly a longer one, too?

Rick C


Goes without saying that any change of component or powder lot requires a backing off and rework of a "hot" load....My point was that rifle primers have a thicker cup and are designed for higher pressures than "most" handgun cartridges. Some handgun mainsprings don't have the energy for consistent results with them. That said, a load that causes damage (?) from a primer swap is likely too hot in the first place!

JMHO... :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:55 am 
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Buckeye

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I think it would be wise to keep an eye on seating depth. I believe rifle primers are taller.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:17 am 
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Hawkeye
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Iron Mike Golf wrote:
I think it would be wise to keep an eye on seating depth. I believe rifle primers are taller.


Large rifle primers are taller than large pistol...:wink:

ALL primers must seat slightly below the case head.

Substituting small pistol primers in rifle cases is sometimes done but one must remember that pistol primers have softer cups, are not designed for rifle pressure levels, and should never be used in "hot" rifle loads.... :shock:

Best advice has already been given, FOLLOW PUBLISHED DATA! 8) (By the manufacturers, not necessarily the internet recipes! :wink: )

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:41 am 
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Single-Sixer

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I can't help myself. Every time I take a look at this forum and find a post with the word "primers" in the title I have to read it for the entertainment value alone. Of course all that has been said here is correct and I would never advise departing from good sound published (from a reliable source) data. But there are mysterious fabrications or misunderstandings in the vast lore of reloading that identfy the cute shiny little "primer" as a considerably dangerous high explosive. It may not be the best choice to use a samll rifle primer to set off a mild .38 wad-cutter loading, but will it do the job? I'm pretty sure it will, if the fireing pin will dent the thing. I'm continually puzzled by folks who think the "wrong" primer will blow up their gun. Primers do not blow up guns. If you drop the hammer on a loading that is destined to blow up your gun you have made a serious mistake my friend and it was not your choice of a primer. Guns are blown up by bore obstructions, the wrong cartridge I.e. .38 Super in a .38 Auto pistol, the wrong powder type or way to much of it. Period. I'd apologize if anyone can prove to me where a primer "blast" has destroyed a gun. Now I will admit that primers are not to be fooled with. Like hammering on them with a ball peen. (some folks have actually done that.) But if treated with a reasonable amount of care they will not cause major destruction and FEMA is not likely to be involved in the aftermath. The "difference" in primers (other than size, large and small, and thickness, rifle and pistol) is practically insignificant - unless you are a benchrest shooter or really obsessed with accuracy. Common sense rules please and have fun while your at it.
Gerry


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Hunter
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Long ago in a galaxy far far away. (ok maybe it was about 1983) A friend (honest it wasn't me) ran out of primers and loaded a bunch of 38's with a mix of SP and SR primers. He took me to a PPC match.

He shot first with the SP primers then he let me use what was left (~50/50 SP/SR) to try a new (to me) game. I should have given up after about the third stage. I was getting about a 40% fire rate. My last couple cyls before I finished I was just double actioning that gun as fast as I could for about four complete cylinder revolutions to get 6 bangs.

So yes, you can do it. I doubt it will be worth it and I would NOT recommend it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:07 am 
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This is my findings & reflects on no "findings" from any company .

CCI 400 & CCI 550 primers have the same cup , in thickness & hardness as tested on LEE lead bullet BHN tester .

But heres the test I performed :

A 6" revolver with a new #2 pencil down the barrel with a primed case only , firing striaght up (with the usual safety gear on)

the 550 will go approximately 8ft. in the air .
the 400 will go approximately 18ft. in the air & split the pencil !

CCI 400s can be used & I do use em , but I approched it very cautiously & use a chronograph to monitor fps .

I found pressure signs show up sooner & I can`t match speeds when using 550 or WSP primers. I used new Starline brass & measured case heads to monitor case expansion. The primers will show hardly any signs of flattening !

I concluded that the 400s were too hot for the amount of powder in revolver cases & caused the pressure spike to rise too quickly !! for optimum performance from revolver cartridges .

CAN safe loads be built using 400 primers , YES! with thought & understanding & testing !!

Once again , this is my findings only YMMV !!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:25 am 
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Hawkeye
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gerryb158 wrote:
. The "difference" in primers (other than size, large and small, and thickness, rifle and pistol) is practically insignificant -
Gerry


I wouldn't call a nearly 100 fps boost in velocity (thereby pressure too) between a CCI-350 and a WLP when used to ignite a caseload of W296 exactly "insignificant"... :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:16 am 
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Single-Sixer

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Is there a difference between a CCI 550 and a CCI 400? (small pistol magnum vs. small rifle) Yes, I'm sure there is. I guess thats the reason they make "rifle" and "pistol" primers instead of just one-size-fits-all. As far as the "caseload of W296" I'd prefer to use the primer specified for the particular load. However, either a CCI 350 or a WLP would no doubt light it off just fine. The difference would be "practically" insignificant. Gerry


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:43 am 
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Hawkeye
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gerryb158 wrote:
As far as the "caseload of W296" I'd prefer to use the primer specified for the particular load. However, either a CCI 350 or a WLP would no doubt light it off just fine. The difference would be "practically" insignificant. Gerry


.45LC, WW case, 250 gr XTP, 25.0 grs W296....10 rds each:

With WLP primer: 1217 fps av vel

With CCI-350: 1295 fps av vel

Insignificant huh? Oddly though, the WLP showed tighter SD/ES...

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