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I have a Colt 45 Gold Cup brand new, I am shooting 185gr. SWC. My question is -Do you crimp or not crimp. Read somewhere where 1911 will jam if bullet is NOT CRIMPED. What say all my friends???

Hawkeye2

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Arnold Stuart-Hawkeye

Taper crimp to .469-.470 as the round head spaces on the case mouth. If all is right.

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Talk low, talk slow, don't talk too much.

I always crimp my revolver/pistol rounds. For the ACP I use a taper crimp.

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wiz

Who is John Galt?

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

I've used the same set of old-school RCBS 45ACP dies to load both jacketed and cast bullets for close to 40 years and aint used a special crimp-die yet. That said, apparently RCBS dies were/are designed to produce a "proper" 45ACP without the need for additional tooling. Maybe other brands need help though...dunno.

FWIW, I suspect that IF you were to need a seperate crimp die and/or IF you found it nessesary to run your loaded cartridges through one of the FCD-type dies (or whatever it is that LEE calls them) that you are either using a bullet that's too fat, or a bullet that's too long for the 45ACP case, or your gun aint cambered just right. The 2nd senerio happened to me once. At the time I was loading some 255 LSWC's into some USGI 45ACP brass, and discovered that the bullet was seating beyound the strait part of the case and causing a slight bulge in the finished cartridge. The fix was to inside ream the cases so's the strait part (inside) extended down a hair further. Had I "bandaided" the problem by using an FCD die, about all I woulda realy done was to succeed in reducing the diameter of the bullet, and distorting it's base to boot. No doubt the resulting ammo would have chambered fine but who wants to shoot distorted bullets, eh?

Now I aint saying that using a seperate crimp die is bad, or that special tooling don't have a place. I'm just saying that sometimes it's good to think about what we are actualy doing, and why we are doing it.

Hope this helps.

DGW

The question of crimp or no crimp is easy. Crimp

The questions of how much crimp. Remington vs Winchester

The question of separating seating and crimping. Ford vs Chevy

All basic three die sets the third die seats and crimps.

The reason I separate the steps is with cast bullets I'd rather the seating operation be completed before the crimp starts. Rather than a little final seating movement as the crimp is starting.

Thanks guy's, I have the RCBS dies, and will use the third die to crimp, what I did not tell you is that I have crimped several loads as well as no crimp, Guess what, the crimped one's fed in my gun as well as my Grandson's gun. The un-crimped one's did not feed in my gun or his, My gun is a colt gold cup trophy, Grandsons is a kimber, both 45's. This was the first time that we have loaded ACP and wanted other Experienced folks opinion, as we first thought that we were doing something ELSE incorrect. Going to the Lyman catalog it say's that many 1911's will not function well with anything but round nose bullets, we are using SWC. Didn't mean to give anyone the run-around, but sure needed other opinion's on this one. WE will crimp from now on.


Thank's Again

Hawkeye2

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Arnold Stuart-Hawkeye

Hi,

That's my vote, too, based on observation of factory ammo. They know a whole heckuva lot more about making ammo than I ever possibly could, and all the factory stuff I've examined was crimped. Different styles of crimp, depending on whether its for an auto or revolver in handguns, or what the intended purpose of rifle ammo is, but all crimped.

So it looks like the only question is HOW to do it. As Dan says, there's a lot of Ginger or Mary Ann involved, and one of the beauties of handloading is there are usually several ways to approach, and solve, a given problem.

For myself, I prefer seating in one operation, crimping w/ a separate die in another (I use Lee FCDs on my ammo.) My results and testing support the idea I can do a better job w/ less work that way than when I used to dink around w/ the seating/crimping die to do both jobs and having to get it just right w/ different bullets, cases and such. Call me lazy, but any time I can get the same (or better?) result for less effort, it seems a good thing.

But YMMV, and I'm not here to say any other way is better/worse than mine! That's another beauty of handloading: you get to play, test, and find out what YOU like best!

Rick C

Rick: I do believe that you hit the nail on the head, to try and get that seating die and crimp in one operation with different bullets is a pain in the rear. So guess that I am lazy too. I have now ordered a lee crimp die for my ACP. Have one for 45 ruger blackhawk.

Thanks again for everyone's input

Hawkeye2

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Arnold Stuart-Hawkeye

Rick: I do believe that you hit the nail on the head, to try and get that seating die and crimp in one operation with different bullets is a pain in the rear. So guess that I am lazy too. I have now ordered a lee crimp die for my ACP. Have one for 45 ruger blackhawk.

Thanks again for everyone's input

Hawkeye2

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Arnold Stuart-Hawkeye

[quote="Arnold Stuart"]Rick: I do believe that you hit the nail on the head, to try and get that seating die and crimp in one operation with different bullets is a pain in the rear. So guess that I am lazy too. I have now ordered a lee crimp die for my ACP. Have one for 45 ruger blackhawk.

I also bought a Lee crimp die, but for a different reason. My .308 reloads would not chamber. A normal crimp die works by pushing the round into the die until it reaches the point where the die constructs, pressing the brass into the bullet. This requires force down on the brass which was pushing the shoulder out, causing the problem.

The Lee .308 die uses a collet. The round moves up into the die and collet until the collet contacts the shell holder plate. Then the collet and the round move together into the die. The collet crimps the brass with all the downward pressure going through the collet instead of the brass.

I ordered some .357 crimp dies, but they didn't have a collet, so I returned them. They may be good, I just never tried them.

There are two reasons to crimp. One is to ensure the bullet doesn't mve due to recoil or hitting the feed ramp. In revolver the cylinder can jam if the bullet grows longer. In a semi-auto the bullet can set back hitting the feed ramp, which can ruin your whole day (and gun). Usually the sizing of the brass is enough hold the bullet, but not always. In addition, my Dillon puts a slight flair on my brass while it dumps the powder in. This allows the bullet to be inserted without shaving the bullet. The crimp correct this.

The second reason is that some powders are harder to light, needing some pressure to get going, and a good crimp can help build up pressure before the bullet is released. This can make the process more consistent.

I like having a separate crimp die because it gives more control. Too much crimp on the 45ACP, and the round doesn't seat correctly. Too little and it will not chamber.

I hope this helps.

Warthog

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Ruger K77/357

Hi,

What you saw there is the difference in construction between the rifle and handgun versions of Lee's FCD. The actual "crimping" operation on the handgun die is not unlike that on a standard seater/sizer die (whether roll or taper.) Then there's the carbide "post sizer" ring that's added to the handgun dies. The collet style rifle die doesn't post size, at least not in the calibers I use.

Rick C

To be honest I believe your 308 issue is an adjustment thing. It sounds like the the crimp is starting before the bullets is fully seated. So the crimp is locking the bullet in place while the seater is still pushing. This will cause belling/deformation of case somewhere. This is why I separate the seating and crrimping steps.

I only have a one stage press so it's not inconvinent to seat a bullet and then crimp it. It just takes a little more time. And I've never seen the need YET to crimp a jacketed rifle round. I've been using the RCBS dies this way with narry a problem.

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wiz

Who is John Galt?

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

There are as many opinions as there are reloaders on this subject. Rule of thumb is revolvers get a heavy roll crimp to keep the bullet from walking our and jaming the revolver. Semi-auto straight wall cartridges get a very light taper crimp since the mouth of the case is what controls the headspace. Lever actions also get a heavy crimp to keep the bullet from being pressed in from recoil.

Where the opions vary is when it comes to bolt actions and semi-auto bottle neck cartridges. If properly sized, in theory, no crimp is necessary. I agree with this as long as the ammo is questions is for one particular rifle that will be used for target shooting. The reason factory ammo is crimped is because it has to perform consistantaly in any rifle, not just the one the load was developed for. By crimping, the release pressure can be controled giving consistant results no matter what rifle is used. Hunting ammo that will be jostled, put in your pocket, loaded in the rifle, unloaded from the rifle and just moved around a lot should be crimped.

When I crimp, I use the Lee Factory Crimp die so I can control the amount of crimp depending on how it will be used. Rember, if you have a load that was developed without a crimp, you must start again and work up the load with a crimp, because that will affect the release pressure and over all results.

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"Load one, skip one, load four"

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Dan in MI
I use one die for seating and one for crimping. I could see how this could happen if you use one die. I even tried chambering rounds without crimping, and there was no problem. I don't crimp much.

Warthog

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Ruger K77/357