Chicken or Egg?

I have noticed recently that this long gun sub site has drifted nearly totally to posts about Ruger's semi-auto carbine/AR offerings. Very little about bolt guns and single shots. (My interests lie solely with the latter so that is why the imbalance peaks my interest.)

The reasons why are fodder for speculation.

I suspect that the new trend reflects both Ruger's sales and related consumer interests generated by their ad emphasis, factory output, and new offerings. Those things of course are shaped by their marketing strategy and understanding of where profits lie.

But then it is also possible that interests in bolt guns' single shots on the part of the Forum visitors/contributors is also in steep decline for other reasons.

Anyway....
wunbe

Its apparent that new products receive the lion's share of posts on Ruger rifles. Last fall its was all about the new American rifles in 7.62x39 and the others with AR/AI magazines and the 450. Now it's the 9mm carbine or the lack of it. I just received a new/out of production M77 Hawkeye Compact Magnum in 300RCM in Blue/walnut. I already had the 308 and the 338 RCM and the price was right. I hand load for all of the other 300 Magnums(WSM, SAUM, Winchester, H&H, Weatherbys, and Ultra Mag) so I figured I might as well have the RCM. Bob!!

It's at least partly due to demographics. We grey hairs who find bolts and SS interesting are slowly, but surely,
departing the scene.
Whereas AR type rifles are the leading sellers with the under 40 crowd.

I check it out here at least once a day to "keep up" on things. I see the same thing and really have no interest in the newer stuff. Ruger pretty much lost me when they went to the matte finishes on the Hawkeye rifles and hasn't reeled me back yet. The last new Ruger rifle I bought when they first came out was one of the new run No.1 7mm-08's.

Maybe I need to give the newer models a try but I also buy rifles based.on looks and don't care for the new stuff there either. I like blued and walnut but really prefer stainless rifles. I used to think Remington's stainless finish was terrible and now with ruger's sand blasted look , the Remington's aren't so bad in comparison so they have made up several of my last purchases in bolt guns. The new No.1's have gotten to the point where to me they are pricing me out of the game. For what I feel I get in a No.1 they are overpriced. I can build a custom bolt gun for not a lot more money and that is exactly what I'm doing instead.

Sugar River said:

It's at least partly due to demographics. We grey hairs who find bolts and SS interesting are slowly, but surely,
departing the scene.
Whereas AR type rifles are the leading sellers with the under 40 crowd.

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Yep.

I'd like to come here and discuss my new Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle in .308... if I could find one.

The local gun stores do not carry them, as there's just not enough customer demand. The youngsters mostly don't buy bolt guns. So I must again, order and buy online. Kind've dampens my enthusiasm sometimes.

The reason for my interest in the Gunsite Scout? I bought one of the new Ruger American Ranch rifles in 7.62x39. I think it's a dandy concept. But, I've found to satisfy my accuracy cravings, I must shoot high quality domestic ammo. That's fine too, but far more expensive than .308 ammo. So I figured the Scout rifle will do what the American Ranch rifle does, but after the initial expense, be cheaper to shoot. Yes, I know when reloading for either cartridge, ammo costs wouldn't matter, but that's for another discussion.

Anybody got one of the Scout rifles and some terrific accuracy reports? Do you prefer the muzzle brake, the flash hider, or neither?

How's that for a rifle discussion?

WAYNO.

When the LCP pistol came out, the forum was a tidal wave of LCP related posts. So it's not surprising we have so many posts about the new carbine.

You can't compare AR's to No.1s, simply because you could have a whole sub-forum dedicated to just flash hiders and comps. Another just for fore ends and rails. Etc. etc. :lol:

I love my #1's, but there's not a lot to say about them. :wink:

Mostly because us old "blue and walnut" guys have gone over every possible facet of our guns several times, and there just isn't much left to say. If anybody comes up with some surprising new discussion on a tang safety M77 or a .44 Carbine, I'd be more than happy to participate.

The new 9mm Carbine..... meh.

WAYNO said:

I'd like to come here and discuss my new Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle in .308... if I could find one.

The local gun stores do not carry them, as there's just not enough customer demand. The youngsters mostly don't buy bolt guns. So I must again, order and buy online. Kind've dampens my enthusiasm sometimes.

Click to expand...

Hi,

I understand "the kids" like black plastic and love spraying lead all over the range faster than they can make the money to get more. But I don't think we greybeards are dropping that quickly as to mean there's no market for what we like.

I like bolt guns, but can't say I've ever been a fan of Ruger's offerings. Thought I might want a single shot once upon a time, but my buddy at the gun shop. a former co-worker, told me they were a crap shoot: one would shoot MOA at 100 yds with your eyes closed, the next one off the line might be a struggle to obtain "minute of elephant" at 25 yds. Maybe that's been cured, but I've moved on. Sorry... I've never been interested in shooting craps, on a table or the counter of the LGS, so Ruger's infamous QC cost them a sale or two there. Probably didn't hurt their bottom line any, but what if I'd gotten a good one, fell in love with it, and started buying more? Hmmm...

However, putting aside my own feelings on the QC issue, something's bothered me for years, and that is companies who put out all kinds of enticing adds about a new product, simply to gauge what the possible market might be should they ever actually make it. Ruger seems to have a problem there, in that they whip up some interest, then never ship enough guns of the particular type to hold it, let alone build it up. The Red Label, in its original configuration, as well as its second coming, would be perfect examples, and the Gold Label was the icing on that cake. Ruger claimed none of them sold well. No, they didn't, at least in part courtesy of an often overlooked economic maxim: you can't sell apples out of an empty cart. I knew quite a few people who wanted one from the first ad they saw, had the money in their hands to buy one "rat now", but couldn't give it away because the guns never showed up in enough quantity to fill the demand.

Just a thought...

Rick C

WAYNO said:

Sugar River said:

I'd like to come here and discuss my new Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle in .308... if I could find one.

The local gun stores do not carry them, as there's just not enough customer demand. The youngsters mostly don't buy bolt guns. So I must again, order and buy online. Kind've dampens my enthusiasm sometimes.

Anybody got one of the Scout rifles and some terrific accuracy reports? Do you prefer the muzzle brake, the flash hider, or neither?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Gallery of Guns shows several .308 GSS rifles in stock in both blued and stainless.

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/PowerSearchTabView/SearchResultsFirearms.aspx?&mfg=Ruger&mdl=Gunsite+Scout&cat=2&type=Rifle%3a+Bolt+Action&cal=308&sit=&rebate=No&zipcode=15243

GoG is sort of like buying local as you make a down payment to them and the balance is paid directly to the local gun shop whose quote you accept. Your chosen shop handles the transfer and makes the profit on the sale.

I have a rather rare, and no longer listed, version of the GSS: Left-handed, stainless steel and in .223 Rem/5.56 NATO. It's not exactly what you are looking for but mine is very accurate, 1 moa reliably with decent handloads. I removed both the flash hider and the forward pic rail from mine as I consider them just cosmetic items for my use. I mounted a old 2-7x32 Leupold scope using the included Ruger rings and am very pleased with the rifle.

The only bolt gun/single shot I have left in my racks is a store branded Marlin 101 in .22LR. It was my first rifle and I'll be passing it on to one of my grand-sons.

My stable of rifles (14 total) includes five 10/22s (one made by Magnum Research, but...) and nine AR15 clones.

They do for me everything I need a rifle to do, and I get alot of enjoyment from them. I have magazines from 10 rds to 30rds, but the latter hardly ever get used.

I'm only 59, but I have very little interest in bolt guns... and none at all in single shots.

Rick Courtright said:

WAYNO said:

However, putting aside my own feelings on the QC issue, something's bothered me for years, and that is companies who put out all kinds of enticing adds about a new product, simply to gauge what the possible market might be should they ever actually make it. Ruger seems to have a problem there, in that they whip up some interest, then never ship enough guns of the particular type to hold it, let alone build it up. The Red Label, in its original configuration, as well as its second coming, would be perfect examples, and the Gold Label was the icing on that cake. Ruger claimed none of them sold well. No, they didn't, at least in part courtesy of an often overlooked economic maxim: you can't sell apples out of an empty cart. I knew quite a few people who wanted one from the first ad they saw, had the money in their hands to buy one "rat now", but couldn't give it away because the guns never showed up in enough quantity to fill the demand.

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Click to expand...

A few years ago your comment was accurate, Ruger announced new guns months or even years before they were publicly available. All the way back to the P-85 introduction, there were long delays before it was on the shelves in gun shops.

That's not true any more. The MkIV and several other new models were available in reasonable quantities as soon as they were announce. The shortage of PC Carbines is likely due to overwhelming demand that Ruger couldn't anticipate. They were available as soon as they were announced but not in adequate quantity and that is being corrected. The waiting time is a few weeks, not months.

Ruger's problems with their Red and Gold Label shotguns weren't just sales volume and introductory delays. The guns turned out to be far more expensive and difficult to manufacture than they anticipated and they couldn't price them high enough to make them profitable.

22/45 Fan said:

Ruger's problems with their Red and Gold Label shotguns weren't just sales volume and introductory delays. The guns turned out to be far more expensive and difficult to manufacture than they anticipated and they couldn't price them high enough to make them profitable.

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Hi,

I can still hear an old boss' words whenever something went awry: "Which one of the 6Ps did you forget?" For those who don't know them the 6Ps are "Proper Planning Prevents P(retty) Poor Performance."

It's hard to imagine a mfr would wait until the product's supposedly being sold to figure out he can't make or sell it at the price he's asking! Something's defective in that scenario. Engineering, accounting, marketing and production departments all have to play well together to make a new product work. Sounds like the first 2Ps were completely overlooked by the lot of them.

Rick C

Well "The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!" .

That happened to Colt and S&W with their 10mm. It happened to MCI with their frame relay (we lost money on every install but made up for it on volume). They were done hurriedly without real POC testing! Building a test piece and giving it a good workout is expensive but can save a lot of money and effort. There is a strong temptation by upper management to believe what they want to hear instead of healthy skepticism!

Rick Courtright said:

Hi,

I can still hear an old boss' words whenever something went awry: "Which one of the 6Ps did you forget?" For those who don't know them the 6Ps are "Proper Planning Prevents P(retty) Poor Performance."

It's hard to imagine a mfr would wait until the product's supposedly being sold to figure out he can't make or sell it at the price he's asking! Something's defective in that scenario. Engineering, accounting, marketing and production departments all have to play well together to make a new product work. Sounds like the first 2Ps were completely overlooked by the lot of them.

Rick C

Click to expand...

I think back in the Red/Gold Label design and development days Ruger was a smaller, less capable company than the sales and manufacturing juggernaut it is today and some of the marketing decisions were made by the decree of WBR, not after a thorough cost/price/benefit analysis. The #1 was a WBR mandate too and has been a marginal seller ever since.

The original Red Label shotguns were in production from 1982-2011, if someone didn't get one they supposedly 'wanted', they need to look in the mirror to place blame.

I picked up the PC Carbine yesterday, serial number suggests Ruger has manufactured 25,000+ since introducing the model a little over five months ago...I would hardly call that slow production :roll:

So..... I hunt elk with a 300 H&H 1-S, Model 71 Winchester in .348 Win and Ruger American 30-06. Quite a mix, huh? Also, deer hunting with a Cooper 54 chambered in 7mm-08, Ruger American 7.62x39 and Ruger American in 30-06. Other than one lever gun and a single shot rifle the other rifles are "traditional" although not all blue/walnut. I have a very varied interest in rifles period. That includes the new PC Carbine and AR556. Also, I still have the first rifle I ever bought. A sporterized .30-40 Krag. I like the diversity of the long guns I own. Widening your interest helps to stimulate continued appreciation for the long gun in all it's platforms...... Of course this just my opinion.

Dave

"Anybody got one of the Scout rifles and some terrific accuracy reports?"

I got real-life 3/8" groups with Hornady Reduced recoil 125gr loads from the bench. concrete bench, 2 sandbags, 100yds. Leupold 2-7 scout scope. 5-hot plastic magazine.
using Federal 165 HP loads they opened up to just over 1/2". I consider that better than adequate for killing deer, and outstanding for a factory-stock Ruger rifle.

The question is really hard to pin down the reason. I think it has something to do with all the media BS and lawmakers talk of banning those ugly black rifles. People that are not big game hunters get the idea to buy something before it is banned. Then look at ARs as a backroom gun builders special, lots of parts available, easy to put together. I am sure some of that is the mall ninja wanting a COOL looking or BADASS gun not a beautiful walnut and high gloss bolt rifle. I have a son that buys guns on cool looks over function, has his friends do also. ARs are somewhat like the H&D motorcycles with all the extras, You can have it your way and in a group of AR or H&D owners not many of those guns or motorcycles will be the same. I never really cared much for them but, had one issued as a designated marksman on the dept. When the DCM allowed ARs as a competition service rifle. I spend big money and shot it for a few years. Much easier to shoot and score great than the M-1 NM I owned and the issued M-14 NM rifles. I got the bug for a carbine and of course my wife needed her own. Now at 3 ARs, I feel I do not want any others, that could change.

While I agree with a lot of the points so far made, I would say that at least some of the trend towards "tactical" is the desire to look 'cool' to friends and on the range. IMHO this is because of stupid movies and video games. Hold the gun sideways, a hit will knock the bad guy down or through the window, you never reload.....

I recently gave some of my girl friends a bad time about the overuse of "tactical", applied to a bra and panty set. The retaliated by buying a tactical set designed for concealed carry!

Currently I have some guns which I enjoy; a single 10, a 10mm and a 357 Blackhawk convertibles, a couple Savage target rifles in 6.5 creedmoor and 338 lapua, a PC9, Aero 10mm, & Hi Point 10mm pc; lastly a AR in 300 BLK. They are all fun to shoot, that's why I have them. The all do a particular job better than the the other. I don't much care what it looks like just how it shoots.

The other day at the range most of the guys were wearing black tactical stuff and shooting ARs (poorly). Several were ejected for painting, failing to clear when told and one for holding his AR sideways over his head while fireing!

I don't think that we can blame gun violence on the movies or video games but they contribute to poor habits and misconceptions.

But to answer the question, I started with the classics; blues walnut stocks. The trend to plastic AR is IMHO due to TV & MOVIES more than military. The current generation shooters are accustomed to think that 'tactical' is 'kool'!

Your thoughts are likely right on, I am not a movie buff and never played a video game, since my 31 year old was in grade school and it was the plumber guy Mario game. But, I do see the commercials and movie trailers. The youth today are playing the games more then watching TV I am told. Just look at the commercial now selling tactical sun glasses. Anything said to be tactical is COOL.