New K 77/357 - questions

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Warthog

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
47
I was looking around for a bolt action 357 and came across acrylictnk's classified ad in Ruger forum. I saw he was local to me so I joined the forum and drove over to pick up my new Ruger!

I never owned a Ruger before. I have a few .357 revolvers (S&W) and a couple of Savage rifles with accutriggers. I guess that spoiled me, as I now that I have a Ruger, I know the meaning of the term "trigger creep". I talked to the people from Timney, but I was wondering if there is any other options for triggers?

I am not a fan of small magazines, and i hope someone comes out with a larger one like they did with the 10/22. Failing that, I would like to buy a couple of the 5 round mags, but I have not found any for sale. Does anyone know where to get them?

I like the idea of using the same ammo in my revolver as in my rifle. I always thought a .357 would make a good rifle round due to the higher pressure and large case capacity. I reload using mainly 17.8 grains of VihtaVuori N110 powder with 125 gr bullets, which is a rather slow burning powder for the revolver, but it does give me about 750 to 800 FPS increase in speed from the rifle!

Some loading manuals do not recommend reloading cases fired from lever action except once due to the "spring in the bolt" causing case stretching. I don't think I will have that problem with the Ruger bolt action.

I went to the range once, with high temperatures (102 degrees) and a small amount of wind gusts. I got a couple of 1.5" to 1.7" groups at 100 yards off sand bags with a scope first thing. Then the wind kicked up.

Jams were common with hollow points, less so with Sierra Sports Master which has a smaller hollow point hole. The holes were catching on the edge of the chamber mouth. I found moving the bolt slowly catches the top of the case and rocks the bullet down, moving the bolt quickly helps. The worst bullets were the Speer Gold Dots which have a very wide mouth, to open at lower speeds.

I noticed the barrel is not free floating. Is there a way to float the barrel on a synthetic stock. Does it help? One of the reasons I wanted a bolt action was better accuracy. A tubular magazine changes the barrel resonance each time a round is used.

Any help on accuracy would be appreciated.


Warthog
 

RJ556

Buckeye
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Focsani, Romania
I have a 77/357. I have not experienced any feed problems with Speer gold Dots, Hornady XTP's, FTX's or Remington hollow point bullets. If you are getting 1.5" and 1.7" groups at 100 yards, I am not sure free-floating the barrel is going to improve that. That is pretty good grouping for this cartridge at 100 yards. The stock is easy to free float the barrel. Just scrape or sand each side and the inside edge of the fore end until you can slip a $1 bill easily between it and the barrel and you are there. I got some groups in that range and just a bit less after installing a Volquartsen sear and free-floating the barrel. I think the better trigger pull did more than the free-floating. But, the best of luck to you. Please let us know how it shoots if you make any mods.
 

Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
10,350
Location
So. Florida
Warthog said:
...Some loading manuals do not recommend reloading cases fired from lever action except once due to the "spring in the bolt" causing case stretching. I don't think I will have that problem with the Ruger bolt action...

Any help on accuracy would be appreciated.

Warthog
I shoot a lot of 357 magnums in a lever-action Winchester 1894 AE and I have noticed no problems with case stretching or any other problems except the occasional nick in the rim from the extractor which is quickly remedied with a small file when reloading. Would you have any sources or links to this information?

For accuracy I have found 180gr XTP bullets work very well. Loading to the second crimp groove, if free bore in your rifle allows, will open up the round to even more power. H-110 or Accurate #9 powder works well for me. 8) 8)

...Jimbo
 

Warthog

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
47
Jimbo357mag
I've read this in a couple of load books. One is the Speer Reloading Manual #14. Under 357 Magnum Rifle page it states "All level-action 357 Magnum rifles have bolts that lock to the rear. This allows the bolt to spring slightly during firing, stretching the case. Use only new or once-fired cases for maximum loads." I know many people who shoot lever and reload, but these were lower power loads.

I will have to try the H110 & Accurate #9. It is probably less expensive than the VihtaVuori. I think I will send the Ruger back to fix the jamming problems. I did order a Timney trigger.

Warthog
 

Warthog

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
47
RJ556 said:
I have a 77/357. I have not experienced any feed problems with Speer gold Dots, Hornady XTP's, FTX's or Remington hollow point bullets. If you are getting 1.5" and 1.7" groups at 100 yards, I am not sure free-floating the barrel is going to improve that. That is pretty good grouping for this cartridge at 100 yards. The stock is easy to free float the barrel. Just scrape or sand each side and the inside edge of the fore end until you can slip a $1 bill easily between it and the barrel and you are there. I got some groups in that range and just a bit less after installing a Volquartsen sear and free-floating the barrel. I think the better trigger pull did more than the free-floating. But, the best of luck to you. Please let us know how it shoots if you make any mods.

RJ556
I ordered a Timney trigger for the Ruger, but before I install it I am sending the rifle back to Ruger to have the jamming problem fixed. I believe this cartridge has more accuracy in it with a bolt action and no tubular magazine. Of course that also depends on the barrel, freebore and other issues. I wish the bolt locked up at the front rather than the rear. I've ordered some heaver bullets and will try get better results next time. I am also looking at trying some .358 bullets loaded one at a time into the chamber. Thank you and Jimbo357mag for the response.
 

RJ556

Buckeye
Joined
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Messages
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I would not worry about the rear locking on the 77/357. It is really not a factor with the 357 magnum cartridge. Case stretch with high pressure loads can be a problem with higher pressure rifle rounds, for example, 308 Win. in a Savage M99, 30-06 in a Winchester M95 etc. I fired many maximum loads in my 1894 Marlin in 357 magnum, with a rear locking bolt and never had a problem with case stretch and reloading those cases. If case stretch becomes a problem in the 77/357 carbine, then the shooter must be firing dangerous overloads in the gun.
 

Warthog

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
47
RJ556 said:
I would not worry about the rear locking on the 77/357. It is really not a factor with the 357 magnum cartridge. Case stretch with high pressure loads can be a problem with higher pressure rifle rounds, for example, 308 Win. in a Savage M99, 30-06 in a Winchester M95 etc. I fired many maximum loads in my 1894 Marlin in 357 magnum, with a rear locking bolt and never had a problem with case stretch and reloading those cases. If case stretch becomes a problem in the 77/357 carbine, then the shooter must be firing dangerous overloads in the gun.

Maybe Speer's comment was lawyer talk in case you owned an old lever action which was worn and getting a loose lockup. My believe is that the one thing this rifle has going for it, over a lever, is accuracy. The lever has more magazine capacity and it can be topped off easy. If this rifle was build like my .308, it should get similar accuracy at 100 yards, but not at 200 due to the bullet drop. I wanted this rifle to explore what is possible with this round.

Thanks for the help

Warthog
 

Ruger Packer

Buckeye
Joined
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1,557
Location
Grand Lake Oklahoma
Warthog said:
RJ556 said:
I have a 77/357. I have not experienced any feed problems with Speer gold Dots, Hornady XTP's, FTX's or Remington hollow point bullets. If you are getting 1.5" and 1.7" groups at 100 yards, I am not sure free-floating the barrel is going to improve that. That is pretty good grouping for this cartridge at 100 yards. The stock is easy to free float the barrel. Just scrape or sand each side and the inside edge of the fore end until you can slip a $1 bill easily between it and the barrel and you are there. I got some groups in that range and just a bit less after installing a Volquartsen sear and free-floating the barrel. I think the better trigger pull did more than the free-floating. But, the best of luck to you. Please let us know how it shoots if you make any mods.

RJ556
I ordered a Timney trigger for the Ruger, but before I install it I am sending the rifle back to Ruger to have the jamming problem fixed. I believe this cartridge has more accuracy in it with a bolt action and no tubular magazine. Of course that also depends on the barrel, freebore and other issues. I wish the bolt locked up at the front rather than the rear. I've ordered some heaver bullets and will try get better results next time. I am also looking at trying some .358 bullets loaded one at a time into the chamber. Thank you and Jimbo357mag for the response.

If I'm not mistaken, Ruger bolt actions DO lock at the front. NOT the rear. Pull your bolt out and look at the front... does it have 2 lugs???
 

RJ556

Buckeye
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
1,070
Location
Focsani, Romania
Negative Ruger Packer. You can pull the bolt out and look if you want but I've been shooting rear locking bolt Rugers for a long time (77/22) and if the lugs lock behind the magazine, its a rear locking action. Ruger rifles built on the small bolt action, 77/22, 77/22 Hornet, 77/357, 77/44 and the ones that I left out are rear locking, The high power centerfire M77, M77MK II and Hawkeyes are front locking.
 

Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
10,350
Location
So. Florida
Warthog said:
Jimbo357mag
I've read this in a couple of load books. One is the Speer Reloading Manual #14. Under 357 Magnum Rifle page it states "All level-action 357 Magnum rifles have bolts that lock to the rear. This allows the bolt to spring slightly during firing, stretching the case. Use only new or once-fired cases for maximum loads." I know many people who shoot lever and reload, but these were lower power loads.
Thanks for the explanation, you learn something everyday. I wonder how accurate you can get with that rifle as the 357mag cartridge is not known to be overly accurate. Since you mentioned it I have shot a few 35 caliber Speer 180gr flat point bullets from my Winchester and they did very well.

000_00032.jpg


...Jimbo
 

Warthog

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
47
Ruger Packer said:
If I'm not mistaken, Ruger bolt actions DO lock at the front. NOT the rear. Pull your bolt out and look at the front... does it have 2 lugs???

Ruger Packer
I just sent my Ruger K77/357 in to be fixed for the jamming issue, so I can't look at the bolt. I did look at the manual and there seems to be some things which look like lugs but they are too long and slide in groves to align the bolt with the chamber. As I remember, that part of the bolt does not rotate. I also looked at the only review I have found on this rifle, by Jeff Quinn at www.gunblast.com/Ruger-M77-357.htm. I states "The stainless steel bolt handle lifts ninety degrees, with the front portion of the bolt not rotating. The bolt locks up at the rear of the receiver." By the way, I sent him an email and Jeff was kind enough to answer. I was asking if this rifle was more accurate than a lever action. He replied that he likes lever guns and owns many, 4 of which are .357. He stated that none of his levers are as accurate as the Ruger bolt. He also said he has not found a problem reloading brass from his lever actions.

I've been reading a lot about what makes a rifle accurate. Free floating the barrel is one, which requires getting rid of the tube magazine. Another is the jump of the bullet from the case to the rifling. You can't do much about that in a revolver, but you can in a rifle. Another accuracy improvement is having lugs which are lapped to the receiver so the bolt stays true under pressure. With the exception of the Browning BLR, I don't think the lever actions have lugs.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't think it is the cartridge which is not accurate, but the rifles it is normally shot from. I like lever actions. I think they look cool, and being able to shove loose bullets into the magazine is very useful. But if you want sub inch groups at 100 yards, you need to change the configuration.

I mounted a Vortex 4X-12X on the Ruger, but when I work the bolt, the power changes from 12X to 10X because the bolt handle hits the zoom lever! I guess that would not happen on a lever.

I just want to see how much accuracy I can squeeze out of a .357 rifle. I am hoping the rifle comes back to me soon.

Jimbo357mag
Thank you for the picture. I gotta try loading .358 rounds into this rifle on at a time!
Warthog
 

Warthog

Bearcat
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Messages
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Does anyone know why some call this a M77/357 and some call it a K77/357? The paperwork states K not M
 

mattsbox99

Hunter
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
3,391
Location
Montana 'Merica
K is Ruger's prefix for stainless guns, so this rifle is a K77/357, if it was blued it would be a M77/357. Ruger made the .44 Magnum version in both blued and stainless. I have the 99/44, semi auto which shoots very well.

Timney makes a great trigger, but its not necessary. A small bit of filing on the sear and replacing the spring usually results in a very good trigger on them.

If you reload the big Sierras, make sure you check it in the chamber before you load a bunch. I have a .357 Max T/C and they won't fit.

H110 is about the perfect powder in the .357 Mag, I wouldn't even mess with AA9.

Welcome to RF!
 

Warthog

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
47
mattsbox99 said:
H110 is about the perfect powder in the .357 Mag, I wouldn't even mess with AA9.

Mattsbox99
The Speer manual shows H110 being better than other powders with 180 gr bullets. Propellent Profiles book also said it was good, but dirty, and in some cases you shouldn't reduce the charge. Have you found it to be dirty?

Warthog
 

Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
Joined
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Messages
10,350
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So. Florida
Warthog said:
mattsbox99 said:
H110 is about the perfect powder in the .357 Mag, I wouldn't even mess with AA9.

Mattsbox99
The Speer manual shows H110 being better than other powders with 180 gr bullets. Propellent Profiles book also said it was good, but dirty, and in some cases you shouldn't reduce the charge. Have you found it to be dirty?

Warthog
I have not noticed H-110 to be dirty at all and I have shot a lot of it in 44mag and 357mag. It does require a full to nearly full charge, a good crimp, and most times a mag primer. :shock: :shock:

...Jimbo
 

LuckenbachTexas

Buckeye
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
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1,207
Location
Leaky, Texas
The most accurate 357 rifle I've seen is the 18 3/4" TALO Handi Rifle. I put one together with a 2.5x Weaver and its a tack driver. More fun than a barrel of monkeys. I think the groups you are getting ain't too bad.
 

Warthog

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
47
Jimbo357mag said:
Warthog said:
mattsbox99 said:
H110 is about the perfect powder in the .357 Mag, I wouldn't even mess with AA9.

Mattsbox99
The Speer manual shows H110 being better than other powders with 180 gr bullets. Propellent Profiles book also said it was good, but dirty, and in some cases you shouldn't reduce the charge. Have you found it to be dirty?

Warthog
I have not noticed H-110 to be dirty at all and I have shot a lot of it in 44mag and 357mag. It does require a full to nearly full charge, a good crimp, and most times a mag primer. :shock: :shock:

...Jimbo


Jimbo
I will have to try H110. I remember someone was talking about a powder being dirty until he increased the charge a few grains, then it cleaned up. Bullet crimp and a full charge would help get the pressure up to a point where full combustion could take place.
I was using Unique, but there were pressure signs (flat primer) before I reached the max charge or velocity out of my revolver. The VihtaVuori N110 did not have that problem, and as it is a rifle powder, it gets top velocities in the speer book for the rifle rounds. It is more expensive than other powders.
Some powders require magnum powders, H110 is one. VihtaVuori recommends using small rifle primers on all 357 Magnum due to the long case (similar to a rifle). I wonder what the difference is between the magnum and rifle primers.
Warthog
 

RJ556

Buckeye
Joined
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Warthog, I love that VihtaVuori N110. The problem is that here in Jacksonville FL, it is all but unobtainable. No stores here carry it. If I order it, other than costing $30 to $35 an bottle, I would have to pay a Hazmat fee of $25, resulting in a price of $55 to $60 for one bottle of powder. That stuff makes some very accurate loads and keeps the pressure down, I sure miss it. I now use 2400, which is not a bad propellent either.
 

Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
Joined
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Messages
10,350
Location
So. Florida
Warthog said:
VihtaVuori recommends using small rifle primers on all 357 Magnum due to the long case (similar to a rifle). I wonder what the difference is between the magnum and rifle primers.
Warthog
That is interesting. I know the rifle primers are much harder and able to withstand higher pressures without blowing out. I don't know how the spark intensity compares.

I found this:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/primers.htm
quote> Rifle primers use tougher cups than pistol primers because the firing pin blow of rifles is usually harder than the firing pin blow of pistols. Rifle primers also contain more priming compound than pistol primers, since rifle cartridges typically contain more powder than pistol cartridges. < end quote

This discussion is very complete and says roughly that a small rifle primer is about as brilliant as a small magnum primer but with a harder cup:
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/34560-357-mag-primers.html

...Jimbo
 

Warthog

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
47
Jimbo357mag said:
Warthog said:
Jimbo357mag
I've read this in a couple of load books. One is the Speer Reloading Manual #14. Under 357 Magnum Rifle page it states "All level-action 357 Magnum rifles have bolts that lock to the rear. This allows the bolt to spring slightly during firing, stretching the case. Use only new or once-fired cases for maximum loads." I know many people who shoot lever and reload, but these were lower power loads.
Thanks for the explanation, you learn something everyday. I wonder how accurate you can get with that rifle as the 357mag cartridge is not known to be overly accurate. Since you mentioned it I have shot a few 35 caliber Speer 180gr flat point bullets from my Winchester and they did very well.

000_00032.jpg


...Jimbo


Jimbo
Thank you for the information on the primers. That was very interesting and answered many questions I had about them. Can you tell me what load you used for the 35 caliber bullet in the .357 case? How did you come up with the load? I want to try it in this rifle after Ruger returns it to me. I sent it in due to the jamming issues. I know I cannot put the .35 bullet in the magazine, but I could hand load it. How deep did you seat it?
Warthog
 

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