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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:21 am 
Hunter

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:01 am
Posts: 3739
Location: Northern Illinois
Although I responded earlier to this thread, since it is still active I thought I'd my two cents. The question of what firearm is best for everyday carry is one that cannot ever be fully resolved until someone invents a compact "ray" gun with unlimited ammo that kills anything with a single shot. As I said in my earlier post, I did switch from a 5 round snubbie to an 8 rounds lc9s most of the time. I have tried getting used to carrying my sr40c, with 15 rounds and is a gun that I find I can shoot well, but it is enough larger than the lc9s that carrying it concealed is a lot more effort than just slipping that lc9s into my Desantis pocket holster and sliding it into my jeans pocket. Maybe when open carry becomes legal I'll start carrying my Glock 17 with 18 rounds of 9mm, but as long as I carry concealed I think I will stick with a smaller gun and take my chances.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:52 pm 
Single-Sixer

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:01 am
Posts: 429
Location: Seeley Lake
GunnyGene wrote:
The lesson here is that more ammo is better. The Dayton shooter, besides wearing body armor, was also loaded up on drugs and booze. He took 24 hits thru gaps in his body armor before he ceased to be a threat.

Anybody still think that a single stack or wheel gun is gudnuf? ;) . . .

Do you know how many of the total shots fired by LEO and any civilian[s] were non-expanding projectiles? I ask because I suspect handgun shots fired were all rapidly expanding bullets, with zero solids or bullets designed for deep penetration. I have no knowledge what bullets the 5.56 ammunition fired. I suspect military ammunition's bullets to have scant stunning effect compared with even 7.62 mm NATO ammunition.

And larger caliber rifle ammunition intended for heavy and/or dangerous game hunting would have ended the villain's shooting quickly. Regardless whether he was killed, he would have been on the ground. I have read that bullets that are heavy and designed for effectiveness on difficult to kill animals - for example, Grizzly Ammunition's 200-grain WFN-GC 357 Magnum - deliver a heavy stunning impact on people wearing body armor when impact is heart-lung area of thorax or center of abdomen. The likelihood these categories of bullets-and-ammunition were available approaches zero.

In short form, ammunition I would expect LEO handguns used would be that [with bullets] more effective for ending problems from unarmored villains. Nearly all civilians would have the same purposed ammunition, I expect. As a bow hunter before MCTD precluded my using a bow, I view bullets as fast-moving arrows. Being a disciple of Dr. Ed Ashby's arrow-broadhead decades-long penetration testing on Asian buffalo in Australia, my ammunition emphasizes penetration at the expense of expansion. Since I carry a revolver, ammunition flexibility is probably easier to accomplish than a LEO with semiautomatic pistol.

Just some thoughts.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:47 am 
Hawkeye
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:01 am
Posts: 14242
Location: Greenville, SC: USA
jgt wrote:
As a non-LEO in my state I am only authorized to shoot at an attacker when I am protecting myself or others in immediate danger. Otherwise, it is going to be get my family to safety. My first shot would be to put him down so he can be dealt with. That means foot to waist area for first shot. Next, would be armpit or neck up. This would be in immediate danger situation only. Otherwise, I do not care if I would be seen as a coward. My first response will be to get my family out. The likelihood of being shot mistakenly by police is very real in that scenario. I know personally of this happening and it is sad for the family and the police at the same time. LEO's have an almost impossible job in that respect.



I'm sorry Jgt but what you describe only works on TV and int he movies.... it is pretty well documented that in a high stress situation adrenaline hits you immediately and a number to things happen... first your eyesight is worse, coordination shot and your hearing too... this means that accuracy is reduced by at least 50%. This is why we are taught to aim for center mass. it's generally taught that if two or three to center mass does not stop the threat then rise up for a head shot and hope for the best.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:56 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:01 am
Posts: 10769
Location: Rugerville, AZ
Just have a gun.
And the murderer is NOT a "shooter". He is a murderer. There is a difference that matters.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:15 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:14 pm
Posts: 1025
Location: Oregon
Naphtali, I do not have all the answers, but can give some facts.
Data collected in reports almost always is only regarding calibers and how many fired. I have been trained to enter data to NCIC, that's the main system FBI gets data from. I cannot recall any box to mark style of bullet. I have not read any report that shows on a national scale type of bullet. The local PDs and MEs might have that data in their area.
Regarding LEOs ammo, since there is no federal law that says XX is the caliber and bullet the PD will use, every department makes their own rules. How do they do that? Someone in the dept. makes that choice. Some good, some bad. About the only thing I have found that is 100% across the board is LEOs use factory made ammo. Most I knew who could carry a .45 acp used FMJ. Early days of LEO 9mms were FMJ. Just to point out LAPD used .38 spl with lead bullets for many years. In a police article I once read Chief Gates said that was so if any officer had his sidearm taken away from him and shot, he had a chance to survive. At the time dept.s around here carried HP bullets in revolvers. The dept. I worked at during that time ruled on caliber and make of gun. Ammo bullet style was up to the deputy.
When talking about handgun wounds and rifle wounds. Those are 2 really big differences in what happens to the human body.
A now dated FBI report done with data from ER rooms throughout the US. Told us that when experienced doctors were fixing the victims of gun shots, It is difficult to understand what handgun caliber and bullet was used to cause the wound their where treating until and unless they found the bullet. In real basic terms handguns mostly punch holes into the human body. After that report the FBI redid there thoughts about caliber and bullet style. End results were the depth of a handgun bullet will travel inside a human body is most important above all else.
Rifle wounds and bullet styles is a difference story.


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