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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:02 pm 
Hunter
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Location: Chama, NM-Our little piece of Heaven.
Below is a good article by Sheriff Jim Wilson.

Let me begin by saying that I’m not a doctor and have never even played one on TV. But it doesn't take a medical degree to understand the great amount of stress that a criminal attack can place on your heart and what you can do about it.

When we get in the so-called fight-or-flight mode, our body thinks we might be about to be hurt and lose blood. So our brain calls down to the boiler room (heart) and gives the order to kick production into high gear to replace what might be about to be lost. This can put a lot of stress on the body. Unless a person has actually been in a fight for his life, it is difficult to imagine the exact amount of stress that we are talking about. Trust me, it’s a lot and can even bring on a heart attack.

Fortunately, there are a couple of things that we can do to combat this extreme increase in blood pressure and the effect it can have on our performance and our ability to survive. Unfortunately, just saying that you are not going to have a heart attack is not one of the solutions.

To begin with, we can avoid severe stress by preparing for the likelihood of a criminal attack. This is one of the main reasons that we take the time and expense to get good training. Then we make the time to practice what we have learned. Developing some confidence in our defensive abilities helps us to stay calm, deal with the problem, and keep our stress level within manageable boundaries.

Training, practice and planning helps us to avoid blind panic. When we have been tripping along in La-La Land, everything looks beautiful and peaceful until evil jumps right into our faces. This is what we should avoid at all costs. Instead of panicking, it is far better to be in a mental state where we can say, “They told me that this might happen and I know just what to do about it.”

That attitude comes from honing your skills. And it will also keep your heart rate down to manageable levels.

It also helps immensely if a defensive shooter is in good physical condition. I am not talking about being in the kind of shape that will allow you to win a 10K marathon—although there’s certainly nothing wrong with that. But getting some sort of regular exercise and dumping a little excess weight can keep the heart healthier and keep it from exploding when the crisis hits. Regular walking and trips to the gym are a good thing. Of course, check with your doctor if you have any concerns about your own situation.

Let’s be clear about this: a criminal attack is an extremely traumatic experience and it can, in fact, create the kind of stress that leads to a heart attack. Being properly trained and in good physical condition are the two things most likely to get you through it successfully
Story Link:
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... an-attack/

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:11 pm 
Hawkeye

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Excellent article, and some good points to consider. Especially in that we are all getting older.

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“If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim.”
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:54 pm 
Hawkeye

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A policeman in California who used to play as a drunk with money to get mugged, says if you aren’t up to a fight, clutch your chest and go to the ground feigning the big one!
gramps

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:18 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:11 pm
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Location: missouri
When my co-worker and I had that little confrontation in St Lou a while back, I saw first hand how stressed she became. While not quite physically ill, she was flushed, breathing rapidly, sweaty palms, and seemed to feel the need to hold onto my elbow like she was drowning. To her credit, she did maintain her cool for the 10-15 seconds of the actual FTF fuzz-up. Had it lasted longer, she might have lost control.
After calming down, she asked how I wasn't showing similar effects. I guess it was because that wasn't my first such confrontation and I didn't really do much except offer the perps a chance to skeedaddle. Had I actually have drawn my gun, that would have been a significant escalation so yes, I might have been more stressed then.
That's the thing about being an armed citizen, you don't get the conditioning like an LEO or military gets. Even those groups don't automatically become immune to the "after action shakes". It's the "during action shakes" that cause most problems.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:37 am 
Blackhawk

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:51 am
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When I was in the military all you had to do to get that kind of conditioning is go to town.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:43 pm 
Blackhawk

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:40 pm
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gramps wrote:
A policeman in California who used to play as a drunk with money to get mugged, says if you aren’t up to a fight, clutch your chest and go to the ground feigning the big one!
gramps


I think today that would be a good way to get kicked and stomped
to death.
Dave


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:20 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:11 pm
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Location: missouri
That used to be referred to as "the heart attack draw" and mostly used by those with ankle holsters. Maybe worked better than hopping around on one foot while trying to reach your other foot.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:34 pm 
Hawkeye
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Todd Rassa a really good firearms instructor gives a class that inoculated you for the time you are exposed to this severe stress. I recommend it highly.

https://www.toddrassatraining.com

As a side note, I tend to talk too much which could be a problem if I ever had to use deadly force... my plan was to tell the first LEO on the scene to call an ambulance I don't feel well and clutch my heart. Some of this was a joke but in the back of my mind a plan if needed... now, it is not so much a plan but would probably be a fact.... for those that don't recall... I had the big one on April 10th.... am getting a follow up echocardiogram on Monday to see if I've gotten any strength back in the old ticker.... in the hospital I was running at about 15%.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:34 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 2:01 am
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Location: Alaska, Idaho USA
I hope your new test goes well.

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“If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim.”
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:39 pm 
Hawkeye
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blume357 wrote:
Todd Rassa a really good firearms instructor gives a class that inoculated you for the time you are exposed to this severe stress. I recommend it highly.

https://www.toddrassatraining.com

As a side note, I tend to talk too much which could be a problem if I ever had to use deadly force... my plan was to tell the first LEO on the scene to call an ambulance I don't feel well and clutch my heart. Some of this was a joke but in the back of my mind a plan if needed... now, it is not so much a plan but would probably be a fact.... for those that don't recall... I had the big one on April 10th.... am getting a follow up echocardiogram on Monday to see if I've gotten any strength back in the old ticker.... in the hospital I was running at about 15%.


Really, does he shoot at you with live ammo?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:36 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:14 pm
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Location: Oregon
For those not experienced it or seen it. After a real stressful event and the adrenaline of the event wear off. A person may start shaking, starting at the hands or knees. Get dizzy or light headed. Maybe faint or fall down, pee or poop uncontrolled. And even throw up. Some may not show any signs. It just happens.
Sitting down or offering the person to sit down can be helpful.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:25 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:01 am
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Location: Woodbury, Tn
Dave P. wrote:
gramps wrote:
A policeman in California who used to play as a drunk with money to get mugged, says if you aren’t up to a fight, clutch your chest and go to the ground feigning the big one!
gramps


I think today that would be a good way to get kicked and stomped
to death.
Dave

It was part of a sting operation. He had big burly cops as backup!
gramps

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:50 pm 
Hawkeye
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Jeepnik wrote:

Really, does he shoot at you with live ammo?



I'll try to explain the classes.... first a in class lecture then you are taken out to a compound where you, the instructors and the rein actors are searched for weapons... then you go into the enclosure and put on a bullet proof vest, issued a helmet with full face shield and neck protection... you are also advised to wear heavy longs leave shirts and pants and gloves.... which I did not. After the 6 or 8 students are all equipped then you are issued pistols with a holster and magazines... you have already bought your ammo. This is frangible rounds... not sure I'm spelling that right. heck I've go a couple laying around and I will post a picture below. then you sit in a room in the enclosure and wait your turn... one of the things everyone has to agree on is to not discuss a scenario until everyone has gone through it.... then one of the instructors comes in and calls each of the students out one at a time.... you then make sure you are locked and loaded and they put a black plastic bag over you head and lead you through the compound... either into another room or outside somewhere... then they give you briefing of where you are and what is going on... such as sitting in a restaurant talking with a friend..... then they tell you that the scenario begins when the bag is removed and ends when they yell "cease fire".

There is no pass or fail in these classes... it is just an evaluation to see how you react. After a scenario you get an immediate review of what you did right and wrong then later it is all reviewed again in the class... each scenario is videoed and you get to watch your and others reactions later.

And as is obvious... this is a serious pretend in what could be the real world and it is interesting to have a person shooting at you will a real gun even if it is shooting 'whimpy' rounds.... You usually have a split second to determine what to do in these and then all hell breaks loose.... the last class I took also dealt with what you do after the bad guy is down... how to deal with any witnesses or survivors and how to call 911 and what to tell them.

I can't find the rounds I have left over from the last time I took a class... seems I put them someplace so I would not lose them...... may find them later.... edit: found one.. obviously a standard 9mm on the left and the Frangible one on the right:
Image

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:45 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:14 pm
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Location: Oregon
Without taking the time to look up frangible bullets and non lethal training bullets. My understanding is frangible bullets are still copper or coated bullets and are made to spatter on impact without any parts or pieces that will penetrate no more than a paper target. We used those at a range near a airport so no bullet parts would go beyond the berm.
We used plastic bullets with paint inside them to train when shooting at each other. That looks like what you have. They are used in a normal gun and sting when your shot, I am told. I never took a hit, but killed the bad guys and some showed me the impact marks on there arms or legs etc. The location of the hit is seen by the paint mark it leaves. We always wore face shields and a chest pad. We also used wax bullets with the same paint and purpose. I think those were phased out.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:51 am 
Hawkeye
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Sounds like you are right.. the 'nice' thing about these bullets is when you are shooting at a bad guy at a reasonable distance you can see where the rounds hit and can adjust immediately. The time frame is usually such that you don't have time to even think about using your sights. I did at the last class I took take time to aim my second and third shots... the senecio was where a ticked off guy in the line in front of you pulls out a knife and stabs the clerk on the other side of a counter... I stepped back while he started ranting and raving and waving the knife all and I yelled back at him to drop the knife a couple of times as I drew my weapon... he started to come toward me and I put one in his chest and he fell down.. What I had learned in my first force on force class was to never use one shot and so I started to put two more in him as he lay against the wall frowning.. and then realized the guy who was still holding the knife had this bare hands across his midsection... and I did not want to shoot him in the hand because I had learned (also in a previous scenario) what happens if you get hit in the hand with one of these and so I deliberately too a little more time and put two shots high in his chest....

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