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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:19 pm 
Blackhawk
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My daughter recently started carrying. I have been carrying for years, many years if you include when I was in the military. She is an excellent shot, and pretty level headed, although has not had as much experience out in the world dealing with people as I have. We try and do something together every week. We go to the range, take pictures, go to a movie etc.

We need a plan in case there is a life threatening situation that requires one or both of us to defend ourselves, or one another.

My initial thought is to let me take the lead, and for her to remove herself from the immediate area, but be watchful and ready to intervene if the situation dictates. I trust her to be able to handle herself, however, one must take the lead. I have more training, would rather the consequences fell on me than her, and darn it as her father I feel the instinct to protect her rather than her me. Although I'm OK with that if need be.

We have talked about different scenarios in general, mostly about when to draw, and when to shoot, when not to shoot, but no specifics about us working together.

Anyone have any plans they care to share on working together with an armed friend, partner, family member?


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:03 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:11 pm
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Location: missouri
Well, I'd rather my companion stay within arm's reach. Having your Daughter retreat right into a second BG isn't what you want.
My plan is this: If there's going to be shooting, I'm going to be the the primary shooter. The companion is the designated "back-up" or takes over if I run dry.
Son and I went to a rather risky looking place to buy some trailer parts a while back. He was concerned enough to ask how many shots I had and what he should do. I told him to stay out of the way until I ran out.
When my co-worker and I were confronted by a couple of guys demanding money in St Louis, I told the unarmed lady to stay to my left rear within 3' and not to run or shriek as this would distract me from what I needed to do. She did exactly that and the incident ended w/o more than a few words. She was scared spitless but still able to do as instructed.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:00 am 
Blackhawk
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Well, if there is a second, as yet unrecognized BG, I would think he would be coming for my daughter whether she is right at hand, or a short ways off. I don't want to have to divide my attention between protecting her from the known BG as well as dealing with him. I'm with you about her staying out of the fight until it becomes necessary for her to intervene, or address the second BG you are talking about. Hopefully there is a car or building she could put her back to in order to deal with threats from front and sides only. BTW, I'm not talking about her retreating to the other side of the parking lot, just enough distance to keep her out of the line of fire if the known threat starts shooting.

I'm not looking for a detailed "what if" plan, just some general plan to start with so we are not working cross purposes.

I also understand that no plan survives the first engagement with the enemy.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:13 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:14 pm
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Location: Oregon
Remember training in the military, classroom instruction than hands on performing the task they taught. So talking about this is a start and only a start. Practice is needed.
Work out just basic stuff because if the real thing happens you must be able to adapt.
How will you two communicate, if shooting starts voices maybe not be heard or blocked thru tunnel vision.
This may help with some ideas. You be the communicator to the BGs and your daughter.
Your focus is know where she is and all other focus towards the threat. She is your wingman/backup. In that role she is where you expect her to be, maybe even taking hold of your shoulder or belt. She scans right/left/behind maybe even up. You do not take eyes off the threat. Her only talking to you might be words like "threat far right" "Children left on bench" "Police coming up behind us"
She should be trained to make calls to 911 when possible. Go to a area were both of you practice, try a few different methods. No need to shoot just go through the drill.
Maybe you heard this or something like it. "The man with a plan will win." Plan and practice. I bet a couple of hours of planning and doing walk through drills will prepare you for most common attacks.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:20 pm 
Hawkeye
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Location: In the AZ oven (Phoenix basin)
My inclination would be to have my second cover my six, while I did his
/hers. That way you have your back covered and you can concentrate on
the initial threat. I would suggest a few words that both of you agree on
to initiate movement, calling 911, turning, hit the floor, etc. so that both of
you concentrate on "your own" half of the potential threat, and the other
knows if specific action is required.

Beyond that, I'll bet you have at least as good an idea as I may. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:10 am 
Hawkeye
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It's good to talk about and plan but the reality is if a bad thing happens not telling what you / y'all will do. Hope for the best.
One of, if not the best, firearms training classes I've attended was done by a guy named Todd Rassa which was a force on force class. Actually done it twice. This is not a stand on the line and shoot at a target class... this is so intense it is hard to explain. But you are put in situations where you have a split second to decide how to act and then after the fact are critiqued on what you did wrong as well as what how did right. The real difference in these classes is all the rules of proper firearm handling are intensionally thrown out... bad guys are shooting at you or someone else with an actual gun firing fragable ammo... and you are wearing a vest and helmet with full face shield as well as neck protection, carrying and using the same type of weapon and often you still bleed if hit somewhere in the arm or hand. The last time I took the class it also taught you what to do after the incident.

I think the Sig Academy where I took these classes also had classes on working as a team. Of course all this requires an investment in time and money.

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:23 am 
Hawkeye
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Location: Monroe County, MS
Do you dance with her? If you do, then you're already a team. You just need to choreograph the moves a little differently for the different music. :)

For example; let's say you both carry on your right hip. You're walking down the street side by side and she's on your left arm. You're confronted by one or more bg's. She should step/pivot left to clear her holster and not sweep/entangle you while she acquires the left most bg if there are 2 or more, or to check your blind spot, and you should maintain your position or step/pivot right while drawing for the same reason. The objective is for both of you to maintain a clear field of fire right from the getgo. That includes shooting from retention if in close proximity.

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Last edited by GunnyGene on Thu May 23, 2019 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:56 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:11 pm
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Location: missouri
Just a thought here. Does your Daughter hunt? Has she killed any big game? Where I'm going is: Are you SURE of how she'll react if presented with the need to shoot at another human?
If you can't be absolutely sure, you may not want to depend on her "covering your 6".

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:08 am 
Blackhawk
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No, we don't dance. I tried a little of that in high school and it was not a pretty sight.

And no, she doesn't hunt. I have the feeling that if she/we were confronted by someone that was really trying to hurt one of us, there would definitely be a fire in her eyes, and she would do what's necessary.

For that matter, though I have carried a gun for a good part of my adult life, including in the military, I have never had to pull my gun in all that time. Who knows how I would react. Again, if someone threatened my daughter, I feel confident I would do what's necessary to protect her.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:26 am 
Hawkeye
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Keep in mind we are all condition differently.... but in a high stress situation most folks will encounter... tunnel vision as well as other senses reduced.... one other condition we are prone to is to fire one shot at the threat and then stop and evaluate. Any good training will condition you to fire two to three shots, determine the condition of the threat and then look for other threats while moving from where you are.....

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"I'd rather Die while I'm Living than live while I'm Dead"... Jimmy Buffet


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:16 am 
Blackhawk
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I was trained for the double tap.

Another reaction for many folks is to keep pulling the trigger until empty.

My daughter is more accurate at rounds fired in quick succession than I am.


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 5:26 am 
Hawkeye
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At the annual Ruger Forum East Coast gathering Contender will set up a competition with multiple targets and some are one over the other. He taught me to start low and work your way up.. the natural recoil of the gun helps you with this.

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"Don't ever think the reason I'm peaceful
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"I'd rather Die while I'm Living than live while I'm Dead"... Jimmy Buffet


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 5:43 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 14844
Location: Woodbury, Tn
Good that you are entertaining these thoughts. Back in the late 80’s, I was a deputy sheriff, my wife was full time NG. My wife’s co-worker’s daughter was raped at knife point, and my wife requested a gun. I gave her my Charter .38 snub. On her drill weekends, we would stay in a hotel in Nashville to save gas. Our plan should someone attempt to breach the hotel door, was out of bed using the bed as cover, both armed, she was manning the phone. Out and about in restaurants, we both sat on the same side of the table facing the entrance, with similar response activity.
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