7,62x25 Tokarev in SP101

I found 7,62x25 Tokarev interesting round; quite hot and flat shooting, but handgun selection is mediocre. Tokarev style pistols are IMO awkward, in many cases quality is questionable, and cannot be carried with round in the chamber. Firing pin is not inertia type, and if gun dropped on hammer (with hammer down), it WILL fire. There is also CZ 52 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_52 , but is available as a military surplus only. Lately, Sig clone Norinco NP762 https://www.gotenda.com/shop/firearms/handguns/norinco-np762-4-5-pistol-7-62x25-tokarev/ became available, but, as far as I know, except in Canada, it is a hassle, if not impossible, to get it in USA and Europe. Yes, I am aware of barrels for 1911, but I am also aware of problem loading Tokarev round in 38 Super magazine.

Having preference for revolver, especially in stainless, and with introduction of 327 Federal, I started thinking why not 7,62x25 Tokarev in a nice revolver. I know about problems with bottle neck cartridges in revolvers (22 Jet and 357/44 B&D), but, I found that Alfa had shown revolver chambered in 7,62x25 Tokarev, on IWA 2019 https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53509534_2525501054146676_1950950978236710912_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=qIWMYpnJcNMAX-UyH95&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=a21ff4e82a026cd2c46633d24224fa6e&oe=5EC4D1C1 . More nice pictures here https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1845160-Alfa-Proj-Revolver-in-7-62x25 .

Well, if Alfa can make it in full size 357 frame, why not in much more suitable Ruger SP101? Later one is plenty strong even for 357 magnum, it's available in rimless 9x19mm Parabellum, and if Ruger could make SP101 7,62x25 Tokarev like Match Champion, it will be on the top of my list.

I seriously doubt it would happen.

Why?

Expense vs. sales.

You have to sell a lot of guns to cover the expense of design, testing, marketing & building. And then there is the necessary profit required to get a project approved.
I do not think there are enough people willing to buy such a gun to make it profitable. Otherwise,, it would have already been tried.

I'm not saying it can't be done,, just that it's not likely a profitable direction for a company.

Sounds like a potentially high-performance chambering from the attendant increase in chamber pressure, exceeding the .357 by use of lighter bullets. Interesting.

I'd have to see some pretty serious testing to prove the elimination of the setback potential in a revolver.

And as contender points out, the potential market likely wouldn't support the cost of development and manufacture.

Still interesting, though. :mrgreen:

Ruger made the black hawk in 30 carbine, don't know if they still make them, and the sales numbers were always low for the high velocity .308 bore. If you want a high velocity small caliber get the 327 SP 101 in 4" It will run a 100 grain almost as fast as a 7.62X25 will with a 90 grain bullet and a 85 grain much faster ! You can make a 7.62X25 SP 101 but a custom cylinder and barrel would be quite expensive ! There would never be enough volume of such gun for Ruger to tool up and sell them.

Well, I like 7.62x25 . In fact I always thought a small trapper sized lever action in that caliber would be beyond cool. I still have a couple of CZ52s and a huge stash of surplus ammo. But ,,,, they don't get used any more. :roll:
That entire window of usefulness has been filled by 327FED for me. It does every thing the TOK cartridge does better with cheap , available brass and a much wider selection of useful bullets. Plenty of available revolvers (including several SP-101 options) and even a lever action rifle. Flexibility is increased with 32H&R options.

But if you still just have a need for a road less traveled check with Gary Reeder for getting 321GNR made up. Pretty sure it might set your hair on fire every time you pull the trigger.

At one time (along time ago) there was a fella rechambering Tokarev revolvers for the 7.62x25 round. It turned out to be unsafe and the guns had a habit of coming apart.

Ale-8(1) said:

Sounds like a potentially high-performance chambering from the attendant increase in chamber pressure, exceeding the .357 by use of lighter bullets. Interesting.

I'd have to see some pretty serious testing to prove the elimination of the setback potential in a revolver.

And as contender points out, the potential market likely wouldn't support the cost of development and manufacture.

Still interesting, though. :mrgreen:

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357 Magum Maximum pressure 45,000 CUP, 35,000 psi (piezo) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum

7.62×25mm Tokarev case can handle up to 250.00 MPa (36,259 psi) Pmax piezo pressure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9725mm_Tokarev

I guess somebody with ballistic background should step in and let us know if this is reason for concern. Otherwise, same steel used 454 SRH cylinder should solve the problem.

I agree with those saying that 7.62×25mm Tokarev in USA is not going to sell like hot cakes. Europe, especially Eastern, could be reasonable large market.

What immediately crossed my mind a month ago when I first learned of the Ruger 57 in 5.7 x 28 was how cool that would be in 7.62 x 25. Over the last few decades, the sales of any of the European handguns in 7.62 x 25 were based on the availability of low cost imported military surplus ammo, often with steel core bullets. Now, all that ammo is gone and we are left with good quality ammo from S&B, PP, and others, but is not cheap any more. I had one of the PPS-H 41 pistols that were imported a few years back and loaded several hundred rounds of ammo using Starline brass and Hornady and Sierra bullets. I traded in the PPS-H 41 and 2 other pistols for my #1A in 250 Savage, without ever firing the PPS. I have not been able to locate any of the 7.62 x 25 1911 barrels for my Colt 38 Super, but since I handload, I'm sure I could make my loads work and CZ 52's are hard to find. The 7.62 is a good round without a home. Bob!!

rangerbob said:

... I have not been able to locate any of the 7.62 x 25 1911 barrels for my Colt 38 Super, but since I handload, I'm sure I could make my loads work and CZ 52's are hard to find...

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Yeah, looks like that barrels 7,62x25mm for 1911 dried out.

BTW, Tokarev is immensely strong pistol, much stronger than CZ 52. See https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9x23.86348/ , post #8.

WARNING: Loads listed in the post above are outright dangerous, way above any published loading data. DO NOT USE THEM!!! They are shown just for information, and neither RugerForum.com, nor the staff of RugerForum.com, nor author of this post assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Back to topic; talked to some of my shooting buddies. Yep, 7,62x25mm in SP101 looks to them very interesting. Also, they weren't aware about SP101 in 9x19mm. That one looks to them cool too. Unfortunately, SP101 is VERY rare here. The only one I had seen is 22LR, in one obscure store, where I never expected it.

Sounds like Clark is making a 9X23 hand grenade !
There is a 30/357 wildcat that could be made out of 357 cases or the 30 Cal Reese and both will fit in an SP101 , a like wildcat and have more zip than a 7.62X25

What immediately crossed my mind a month ago when I first learned of the Ruger 57 in 5.7 x 28 was how cool that would be in 7.62 x 25.

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Exactly what I thought! I'm sure 5.7 would sell 10x more... but they are making an auto with a long enough grip for the round... why not go ahead and make a version in the Tok round? Maybe it would be more likely if every gun store was still stacked high with spam cans of the ammo... cheap, cheap, cheap... but it is still out there. I might have a few thousand rounds. Take me forever to shoot them all at my annual rate of about 10-20 rounds per year. If I had a Ruger 5.7 and a Ruger Tok... I might have to open some more cans!

contender said:

I seriously doubt it would happen.

Why?

Expense vs. sales.

You have to sell a lot of guns to cover the expense of design, testing, marketing & building. And then there is the necessary profit required to get a project approved.
I do not think there are enough people willing to buy such a gun to make it profitable. Otherwise,, it would have already been tried.

I'm not saying it can't be done,, just that it's not likely a profitable direction for a company.

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I understand your concern, but let face it, how many of you have 30 Carbine BH? In all those years I had seen just one (Toronto area), and it was OM, 3 screw. I can tell you that outside of USA 30 Carbine is totally unknown to average shooter. Yet, Ruger still makes NMBH in that caliber https://www.ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkBlued/specSheets/0505.html .

In other hand, 7,62x25 Tokarev is quite known in USA. Of course, not as 7,62x39, but still. Regarding many other countries, especially Eastern Europe, Tokarev round is common as 45 ACP in USA.

Regarding concern because of potential case setback due the nature of bottle neck cartridge in revolver, I just stumbled upon .224-32 FA, base on 327 Federal Magnum case:



More in article "Freedom Arms Model 1997 .224-32 FA Revolver" https://gunblast.com/Freedom97-224-32.htm . After closer look, I noticed that article is from 2009. Well, I said, might be just one of those nice tries, and gone after some years. Being curious, I checked FA website, lo and behold, .224-32 FA Model 905-18 is still there http://www.freedomarms.com/firearms/m97pr/index.html . So, must be market for it.

That FA is very cool. Might be an interesting cartridge in a Contender pistol barrel as well. If the FA's weren't so well made, they wouldn't be so expensive... but if they weren't as well made, they wouldn't be as interesting! I've never been able to convince myself to buy one... but those look very nice. And Jeff's review is great, as usual.

One thing Jeff didn't explain.. he said rechambering a revolver in .22 Jet leads to problems with case setback. But that this round doesn't have that problem. OK, I know the S&W M53 had that problem... but why doesn't this cartridge? The Jet does have that long tapered case and this one has straighter sides... is that the key?

tulsamal said:

...One thing Jeff didn't explain.. he said rechambering a revolver in .22 Jet leads to problems with case setback. But that this round doesn't have that problem. OK, I know the S&W M53 had that problem... but why doesn't this cartridge? The Jet does have that long tapered case and this one has straighter sides... is that the key?

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Keep in mind that that .22 Remington Jet is necked down 357 magnum, so the difference from .224 to .357 is .133. On top of that, 22 Jet has long taper, and very little straight portion of the case to allow its grasp on the chamber wall. So setback, especially when lubricant is present, is inevitable.

As for .224-32 FA, that difference is .088, considerably less. Also, straight portion of the case is much longer and relatively large, so setback force created by short transition cone is considerably less, and setback is not the problem.

I've heard that one of the downsides of the 30 carbine handgun is/was the obnoxious/unbearable muzzle blast. Understandably, the 30 carbine ammo is designed entirely for use in a carbine length barrel while the 7.62 TOK may lean more to use in handguns. The question I present is barring the use of cheap ammo, what can the 7.62 TOK provide that isn't already covered by 327 straight wall cartridges?

I'm a little slow about re-visiting this post. My apologies.

Onty, you asked about the .30 Carbine & how many do I see or own. Well, I own 5 of them,, and have seen several. And, as mentioned,, it may just be due to the fact that here in the USA,, we do have more availability of them. BUT,, that said,, again here in the USA,, the 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo is NOT as common,, as the .30 Carbine.
Wildcats, customs, etc exist around where people can think & create things to fit their ideas of what they wish. BUT,, since most of the American market is the target of Sturm, Ruger,, and the lack of Americans familiarity, and availability of the Tokarev round IN THE MASSES,,, again, I do not think we'll ever see a SP-101 chambered in it.

The FA shown above is an interesting idea. I've handled one,, but it wasn't available to be shot,, so I can't comment on it's performance. But again,, a smaller niche group will buy it,, but mass production may never happen.

Mobuck said:

I've heard that one of the downsides of the 30 carbine handgun is/was the obnoxious/unbearable muzzle blast. Understandably, the 30 carbine ammo is designed entirely for use in a carbine length barrel while the 7.62 TOK may lean more to use in handguns. The question I present is barring the use of cheap ammo, what can the 7.62 TOK provide that isn't already covered by 327 straight wall cartridges?

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You are right, in USA 327 Federal magnum is step above 7,62x25 Tokarev (in revolvers). However, IMO the only reason why 7,62x25 Tokarev in USA didn't get popularity of 7,62x39 is luck of decent firearm for the first one. Tokarev pistols are IMO awkward, ugly, and there is no surprise they never reached popularity of AK 47.

Same applies for Webley Self-Loading Pistol. Who on the earth (except hard core Webley collectors) would like to have something like this https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RELAWM11334.001/screen/3847509.JPG ?

Contrary to pistol, Webley WG revolver is beautifully designed firearm https://www.google.com/search?q=Webley+WG+revolver&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNTb7OzS1cgy8s8s2DNyOygxflJhFg:1581285787257&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiv54zNvMXnAhXk-SoKHQBqCBYQ_AUoAXoECA4QAw&biw=1920&bih=1058#imgrc=X729kl0BYlPcfM . I just love how it handles, very ergonomically designed, especially that one with bird head grip. Too bad that current Webley & Scott https://www.webleyandscott.com/ management is so oblivious regarding potential market for revolvers. Hope that Uberti, Cimmaron, Army San Marco, etc., will seize opportunity. Can you imagine a WG revolver as 45 combo, with cylinders for 45 Colt, 45 Schofield and 45 ACP/AR!? With it's top break design, cylinders could be swapped in seconds. And cleaning easier than any other revolver style.

BTW, 327 Federal magnum is relatively new cartridge, and is totally unknown outside USA, as far as I know. When talking about 30 cal. in Europe, until 327 is wide spread as 357 Magnum, 7,62x25 Tokarev will have the edge. Personally, I would prefer 327, much easier to reload. However, no 327 revolver, no ammo, no brass, no bullets, just no luck with it beyond USA.

rangerbob said:

What immediately crossed my mind a month ago when I first learned of the Ruger 57 in 5.7 x 28...

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What about 22 Hornet in SP101? A bit longer cylinder would be required, but I don't see a big problem there. SP101 in 22 Hornet with 6-6.5" barrel would be perfection!

Yeah, I am aware of (now out of production) BFR in 22 Hornet https://www.genitron.com/Handgun/Magnum-Research/Revolver/BFR/22-Hornet/Variant-1 . But, when I saw such minuscule round chambered in revolver designed for 475 and 500 Linebaugh, I laughed. No wander it didn't sell.

I think this .455 Webley Fosbery Automatic Revolver is really cool and a engineering marvel.
https://youtu.be/lU8puzcGOOs

The post above of webley & scott reminded me of this.

If you haven't tried it don't knock it. It was made to get inside three layers of thick wool and padded winter jackets.



I even make my own brass and load 90g HPs.