Musings of a newbie

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Durango Dave

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
158
Location
Durango CO
Okay, I'm new to guns so I'm allowed to say stupid things. :lol: I have a couple of guns. Most recently I purchased a Ruger Blackhawk and I gota say I love this gun. It's so simple and old school.
Here are a couple of thoughts that came to me after buying this gun:

1. As you know, the way to load the single action revolver is to open the loading gate. This allows me to load one cartridge at a time as I rotate the cylinder. As far as I know this is how to load most (if not all) single action revolvers. Dual action revolvers, on the other hand, allow you to swing out the entire cylinder to the side so you can quickly load all six (or how ever many) chambers. Is there any reason a single action revolver can't have the cylinder swing out?

2. My Ruger is a .357 convertible. It's made for .357 magnum. I can also load it up with .38 special cartridges. Then I can also change out the cylinder and load 9 mm ammo. So then I started to wonder, what is the true meaning of "caliber"? Where else would I go but to Wikipedia. They say:
caliber or calibre is the approximate internal diameter of the barrel, or the diameter of the projectile it fires, in hundredths or sometimes thousandths of an inch
That really struck me as odd! They say that caliber is either the diameter of the barrel OR the diameter of the bullet. They don't even know know what they are measuring but they sill insist on measuring to the thousands of an inch.
Of course the barrel and the bullet are not and can not be the same diameter or there would be a lot of friction. More importantly my barrel is one size and this revolver shoots 3 sizes of bullets.

How to make sense of all this? I decided to do a bit more researching. I googled the size of a 9 mm bullet. I find out they are 9.02 mm. Of course the barrel can't be exactly 9 mm or bullets simply wouldn't fit. Power may force the bullet out the barrel with a lot of wear. Why aren't 9 mm bullets 9 mm?

Next I looked up the .38 special. They must be .380 inches in diameter (or so you would think). But nooooo. According to Wikipedia.com these bullets are .375 inches in diameter. I think the .38 came before the .357 so why would they call them .38 caliber?

I don't know the answer to these questions but I'm beginning to think the gun manufacturers don't even know why they name the calibers. Nothing on a 9 mm gun is 9 mm. Nothing on a .38 special is .38 inches in diameter.
 

rjn

Bearcat
Joined
Dec 25, 2016
Messages
32
Well not to add to your confusion but in reality a bullet should always be larger than the bore (internal diameter of the barrel). It just gets squeezed down to size as it moves forward.

The 38 special and 357 Mag use the same diameter bullet. There is a lost of history driving the caliber designations. For example the 38 was designated 38 because it was .38 when things started out. Search for Heeled bullet to learn more.
 

Chuck 100 yd

Hunter
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
3,251
Location
Ridgefield WA
There IS a lot of friction ! Without a lot of friction there would be very little resistance to the burning powder and little pressure build up. Can you say pop gun?
Entire books are devoted to the subject of caliber designation, and much confusion.
Welcome to the forum!!!
 

Sacramento Johnson

Blackhawk
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
666
Location
Nevada
Double action revolvers with a swing out cylinders were a later invention than single action revolvers. Single action revolvers came first and were originally designed to have the chambers loaded one at a time. I suggest you pick up some books on the history of handguns. Alot of the questions you ask can be explained by reading about the evolution of handguns and self contained cartridges (what we call 'bullets or ammunition' today.)
 

pisgah

Buckeye
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
1,633
Location
Upstate SC
The definition of "caliber" varies according to what you're measuring. There's "bore diameter", which is the size of the hole drilled in the barrel. Then, there's "groove diameter" which is the diameter of the interior of the barrel between the bottom of the rifling grooves -- larger than bore diameter. For instance, a barrel with a bore diameter of .308 may have a groove diameter of .311. The, there's the diameter of the bullet fired in a particular cartridge, and that will usually be bigger than bore diameter and equal to -- or even slightly larger than -- the groove diameter of the barrel it's fired in.

Then, there are cartridge names, which often bear little relationship to either bore, groove or bullet diameters. For instance, a .38 Special actually fires (usually) a .357 or .358 bullet. A .44 Magnum uses a .429 bullet. Various ".22 caliber" rounds may use .222, .223 or .224 bullets. The .38-40 cartridge actually uses a .401 bullet. The .303 British round uses a .312 bullet. And almost every cartridge you can name will be loaded with slightly different size bullets depending upon whether they are plain lead or jacketed bullets.

Yes, it's confusing. No, there's no way to simplify it.
 

Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
10,350
Location
So. Florida
Someone will correct me if I am wrong. I do believe that a single-action gun could be done with a swing-out cylinder but it evolved that way first and stayed that way. The opposite could also be true, a swing-out cylinder gun could be made single-action, it just isn't, although many are double-action only, for safety.

The 38 special and 357 magnum bullets are the same diameter it's just that the cartridges have different names, reflecting their origins. The 9mm is a slightly smaller diameter but will work pretty well in a revolver, it's inspiration coming from the 45colt/45acp type of guns from WWII.
 

pisgah

Buckeye
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
1,633
Location
Upstate SC
More confusion for you. Single-action guns have been made with and without swing-out cylinders -- as have double-action guns. And break-top revolvers have been made in both single and double-action, too.
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
25,150
Location
Lake Lure NC USA
Welcome to the Forum!

And to the same kind of confusion many new shooters experience.

I teach a lot of new lady shooters. I get the same kinds of questions often. To keep it as simple as possible,,, I tell folks to look up the history of a particular caliber & see how it was named & by whom. Nothing was "standard" for many decades. Heeled bullets,,, bore diameters, groove diameters, the metric system, and just plain old human nature have all played into the designation of calibers.
 

Durango Dave

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
158
Location
Durango CO
rjn said:
a bullet should always be larger than the bore (internal diameter of the barrel). It just gets squeezed down to size as it moves forward.
I don't have a bullet available without the cartridge but my bullet seem to be smaller than my barrel. The casing seems to be what prevents me from sticking a cartridge down the tip of my barrel.
 

Durango Dave

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
158
Location
Durango CO
Sacramento Johnson said:
Double action revolvers with a swing out cylinders were a later invention than single action revolvers. Single action revolvers came first and were originally designed to have the chambers loaded one at a time.
But can't they now design single action revolvers with a swing out cylinder? THey already learned how to do it with double action revolvers.

Sacramento Johnson said:
I suggest you pick up some books on the history of handguns. Alot of the questions you ask can be explained by reading about the evolution of handguns and self contained cartridges (what we call 'bullets or ammunition' today.)
Hey, I'm a newbie. I've got better things to read than books about bullets and cartridges: that's why I joined the forum. To find easy answers. :D
 

Durango Dave

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
158
Location
Durango CO
daveg.inkc said:
Then look up .44 Magnum

Oh you're just trying to confuse me. :evil:

A .44 magnum has a bullet that is .429 inches in diameter.
A rim diameter of .514 inches
the neck diameter is .457
and nothing that is .44 inches
 

Durango Dave

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
158
Location
Durango CO
pisgah said:
The definition of "caliber" varies according to what you're measuring.
I'm not the one measuring anything. I'm just wondering what the manufacturers are measuring when they talk about a 9 mm caliber.

pisgah said:
There's "bore diameter", which is the size of the hole drilled in the barrel. Then, there's "groove diameter" which is the diameter of the interior of the barrel between the bottom of the rifling grooves -- larger than bore diameter. For instance, a barrel with a bore diameter of .308 may have a groove diameter of .311. The, there's the diameter of the bullet fired in a particular cartridge, and that will usually be bigger than bore diameter and equal to -- or even slightly larger than -- the groove diameter of the barrel it's fired in.

Then, there are cartridge names, which often bear little relationship to either bore, groove or bullet diameters. For instance, a .38 Special actually fires (usually) a .357 or .358 bullet. A .44 Magnum uses a .429 bullet. Various ".22 caliber" rounds may use .222, .223 or .224 bullets. The .38-40 cartridge actually uses a .401 bullet. The .303 British round uses a .312 bullet. And almost every cartridge you can name will be loaded with slightly different size bullets depending upon whether they are plain lead or jacketed bullets.

Yes, it's confusing. No, there's no way to simplify it.

Oh my head hurts.
article-2156396-13826503000005DC-286_468x506.jpg
 

ditto1958

Blackhawk
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
567
Location
Wisconsin
Swing out cylinders were more for faster ejection. Top break revolvers also make for fast ejection Loading (without a speed loader) is pretty much the same for both SA and DA revolvers. For many years,Smith & Wesson double action revolvers with swing out cylinders were marketed as "hand ejectors," as the ability to eject your empties all at once was an excellent selling point. Technically, their DA revolvers are actually still considered to be "hand ejectors," even though Smith doesn't call them that any more.
 

jsh

Single-Sixer
Joined
Oct 6, 2013
Messages
321
Location
Kansas US of A
Get a load manual. Then read it, really read it.
I usually read mine off and on a fair bit.
Stick to the basics. One has to walk before they can run.
I see a lot of newbies betting caught up in a lot of gadgets. Most of these work,but be minute by some standards.
If a gun is shooting patterns rather than groups, there is for sure a problem of some kind. Figuring out what it is, is another thing. Most are very simple, once again stick to the basics.
I have a drawer and boxes full of gadgets that did very little to nothing for accuracy.

As mentioned above some standards for measuring have changed over the years. Going from black powder to smokeless. Going from a metric measurement to our standards. There are more than few dies out there that way over work brass an necks for some of the foreign country calibers. The 7.5x55 Swiss was one of the most frustrating cartridges I worked with. I spent a lot of time and money getting one to shoot. I ended up with a wildcat set of dies, 30x284. I was told over and over they would not work. I had already done a pile of measuring and they were a LOT closer than what I was told was the "proper" ones.
Then on the metric side,the 7.62x54 dies. They would size down to way under sized (.308)then drag the neck back over a .313 expander ball. Who say you can't pound a square peg through a round hole?
Yes it gets interesting for sure.
38-55 measures 380 ish most of the time. Yet it higher pressured cousin, the 375 Winchester uses a 375 jacketed or a .377-.378 cast bullet.
 

22/45 Fan

Hunter
Joined
Dec 8, 2001
Messages
2,123
Location
Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Durango Dave said:
But can't they now design single action revolvers with a swing out cylinder? THey already learned how to do it with double action revolvers.
Of course they could but the single action revolver in it's current format sells because of it's heritage and history. There is probably no market for a swing out cylinder single action revolver.

Just as there is probably no current market for a double action revolver that loads through a loading gate like a single action revolver. That said, several very early double action revolvers (look up the Colt "Thunderer" and "Lightening" ) loaded just like their single action contemporaries.
 

ADP3

Single-Sixer
Joined
Dec 23, 2001
Messages
485
Location
SC
Welcome to the Forum. My favorite caliber oddity is the .41 Colt which has a bullet diameter of .38. There are giant leaps of logic in the grand scheme of calibers. Read every book you can get your hands on regarding guns and ammunition. Magazines are also a great source of info particularly the "American Rifleman". If you are not already a member of the NRA join ASAP. Find a long-time member who has saved his copies and borrow a dozen at a time. You'll quickly pick up a great deal of useful information. There are also legions of BS artists out on the internet so fact check information that does not ring true. This forum though is full of knowledgeable folks many of them quite expert on firearms and shooting.

Best Regards,
ADP3
 

daveg.inkc

Hunter
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Messages
2,503
Location
Kansas City, MO
The older reload manuals have alot of information. my earliest are 1953. Many obsolete cartridges. Powders, that today are unheard of. Men who were pioneers in the reloading industry that we know today. You cannot read too much, and yet the OP said he wanted his answers from a chat room. Kid, you have to dig in old books, new books. Ever hear of Elmer Keith? Bill Jordan? A cat named Skeeter??
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
25,150
Location
Lake Lure NC USA
"Hey, I'm a newbie. I've got better things to read than books about bullets and cartridges: that's why I joined the forum. To find easy answers. :D "

I understand this day & age of people wanting quick & easy stuff. Instant info & gratification.

But some subjects are NOT easily answered, nor are they going to be answered w/o research & study.

YOU admitted you are new to handguns. So, consider this. Think like you just entered grade school, in the 1st grade. You will not get a high school diploma without years of study & work. And then, you will only have general knowledge & basics learned. A college degree will be necessary to get truly in depth understanding of the subject. And a Masters degree will allow you to discuss things with a fair understanding of the subject, but it will also allow you the knowledge of WHERE to find answers to harder questions.

Most of us here are still in high school or college,, a long way from a Masters degree.

There is no substitute for work & study.
 
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