Saga of the Ruger "Pitted Stainless Steel Cylinder".

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Chev. William

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
59
At the Beginning of December (Dec. 8th to be exact) I submitted a .22 Mag Stainless Steel 6-shot Single Six Revolver Cylinder to my Local Gun shop (American gun Works in Glendale, CA) to see if they could get Ruger to Exchange, or at at least replace with reduced cost, as it seems it is UNSAFE To Fire by Observation.

I bought it off of Ebay and upon receipt visually inspected it and found it had some "pits" showing with mo evidence of being fired bu t indications it had been fitted to a Revolver by Ruger.

Using a 10 power Loupe I saw that one "pit", which opened in the Rim Recess of one chamber, was deep and extended into the outside wall of the chamber appearing to leave that cylinder wall Seriously Compromised in Strength.
The remaining "pits" appeared to be remanents of larger ones that had been machined off in processing by Ruger during Original Manufacture.

I am Hoping the shop will be able to negotiate a replacement for me as I wish to use it for reaming to another Caliber Cartridge.

I called Ruger Customer Service myself before turning this over to my Local shop and received the Information that Ruger turns the Cylinders from Bar stock of a Weldable Stainless ?steel Alloy, which the Customer Service person would not disclose (Proprietary Information).
I was Also told that Ruger would not sell a cylinder outright to an End User/Owner as i twas Policy for Ruger to Fit them at the Factory. I am hoping they Will allow my shop to obtain the replacement as I do NOT wish to send my Custom Single Eight in to Ruger and have them Undo all the custom work to return it to as Manufactured condition before fitting a replacement cylinder.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
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Lake Lure NC USA
It is unlikely that Ruger will allow your shop to receive a replacement cylinder. They fit them to avoid potential lawsuits. (You know,,, CYA!)
If you have a bad cylinder,, the cheapest route may be to buy a replacement off one of the gun sites & have it fitted.
 

NikA

Buckeye
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Another option for you might be to get the pit area welded up. After all, you've been told that this is a weldable stainless alloy, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out based on whether or not it's magnetic which alloy series it belongs to (matters for the welding rod/filler metal, less so exactly which alloy it is). Since you need to cut new chambers anyway, the dimensional changes should be irrelevant. This type of project would be prefect for the experienced hobby welder.

According to information I've seen (http://www.modernapplicationsnews.com/articles/m0401stainless.htm), Ruger uses 410SS in most of its stainless applications. 410SS is a pretty common alloy, you should be able to find someone out there that knows how to weld it properly.
 

gtxmonte

Buckeye
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Contender says unlikely........but I am going to go ahead and say it. No way that's going to happen
 

Chev. William

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
59
As is said: "Hope springs Eternal."
I am Still Hoping my Local Gun Shop is successful in negotiating with Ruger on my behalf.
If Not, then the Cut away and Weld Up route will be investigated for costs.
I already know of a Certified aerospace Welding Establishment that I can consult for the project.
The "Weld Route" is a Second choice Path though, and the restoration Machining and Reaming is more possible problem areas if that path is taken.

If this cylinder is Welded and then reworked, would it have the SAME Strengths as a good Unwelded Ruger Cylinder of the Same Materials and Caliber?
My Past experiences in Defense Electronics and Aerospace Industries leave me with questions on that score.
Would It stand up to use in its Intended Final finish caliber (.32 Long Colt)?
Again I do not Know at the moment. I do think an Unwelded Cylinder Would have a Greater Strength 'Safety Margin' though (no "Heat Affected Zones" of unknown Alloy composition or hardness to deal with).

Have I trusted Aerospace Quality Welding on high stressed Components?
Yes, I have. And my Trust has been well founded from history and my experiences to date.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

G2

Hunter
Joined
May 8, 2006
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UT/AZ
Uhhhhhh really??? WHY....

JUST BUY ANOTHER CYLINDER FOR THE PROJECT... :roll:


The time & money spent to "fix" current cylinder,,,, it's a very common cylinder, whereas another can be acquired for common cents or is that sense. :roll:
 

s4s4u

Hunter
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
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2,085
Location
MN, USA
JUST BUY ANOTHER CYLINDER FOR THE PROJECT... :roll:

What he said ^^^

Cylinders are easily obtained and fitting one to a revolver is relatively simple. I've done two myself.
 

woodperson

Single-Sixer
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
460
Location
Knoxville, TN
If you can get a cylinder that would be good. What custom work will they undo? No way I would fool with a defective cylinder or a welded defective cylinder or a drilled out defective cylinder. Bar stock should not contain defects to start with. Can you drop some old parts back in it and send it to Ruger if you can not get a new cylinder?
 

gtxmonte

Buckeye
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On another note here.........it's a 22 mag. Short of having a hole completely through it, there is likely nothing wrong with the cylinder structurally. Also you are going 32 mag. Will boring it not take the flaw out?
 

Chev. William

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
59
woodperson said:
If you can get a cylinder that would be good. What custom work will they undo? No way I would fool with a defective cylinder or a welded defective cylinder or a drilled out defective cylinder. Bar stock should not contain defects to start with. Can you drop some old parts back in it and send it to Ruger if you can not get a new cylinder?

The Ruger Single Six Involved is Customized Bu installation of a custom Machined .25ACP 10-5/8" long Barrel, converted to Center Fire from Rim fire, and reworked to index 8-Shot cylinders.
The one I wished to use the Subject cylinder is a .32H&R Magnum Single Six.

Obviously Neither Would be 'fitted' by Ruger to a new .22-Mag cylinder if sent in to them in their existing configurations.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

Chev. William

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
59
gtxmonte said:
On another note here.........it's a 22 mag. Short of having a hole completely through it, there is likely nothing wrong with the cylinder structurally. Also you are going 32 mag. Will boring it not take the flaw out?
Neither I nor my gunsmith believe the Defect would be completely Removed in the re-cut of the Chambers from .22-Mag to .32 Long Colt as there would probably remain a good size "Pit" in the Chamber Wall into which Brass could deform upon discharge and lock a Fired Cartridge into the chamber.

Not a desirable Result indeed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

NikA

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You are correct to question the strength of the weld, especially with the possibility of a HAZ in stainless alloys. With an alloy as common as 410SS, this should be avoidable for someone who knows their stuff. A prudent approach might be to proof test the cylinder, since HAZ problems usually result in failure by cracking and not by other mechanisms. Given that you're looking at BP-era cartridges, you might just designate this cylinder for only SAAMI spec loads (.32LC is ~15ksi, right?) and reserve a known good cylinder for higher pressure experiments.

Incidentally, how do you determine that your typical modified cylinder is safe with your cartridge pressure? Are you doing some sort of stress calculation using the original cylinder design and then extrapolating your cartridge pressures with something like Quickload? Short of doing either semi-destructive testing or calculating this, how is the possibility of a defect in the material of every cylinder not an issue?
 
Joined
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Messages
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As a welder and sometimes machinist ( or the other way around ) I'd suggest you just get a different
cylinder. If you're paying someone shop rate for this work I suspect you will end up with more into it
than a different cylinder would cost.
Some times just because it can be done doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.
Dave
 

Chev. William

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
59
flattop44 said:
Can't your gunsmith just make you another cylinder in the caliber that you desire?
FT44

More Hours Than he has time for at the moment; and the Cost would Rise Appreciably.
Chev. William
 

Chev. William

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
59
NikA said:
You are correct to question the strength of the weld, especially with the possibility of a HAZ in stainless alloys. With an alloy as common as 410SS, this should be avoidable for someone who knows their stuff. A prudent approach might be to proof test the cylinder, since HAZ problems usually result in failure by cracking and not by other mechanisms. Given that you're looking at BP-era cartridges, you might just designate this cylinder for only SAAMI spec loads (.32LC is ~15ksi, right?) and reserve a known good cylinder for higher pressure experiments.

Incidentally, how do you determine that your typical modified cylinder is safe with your cartridge pressure? Are you doing some sort of stress calculation using the original cylinder design and then extrapolating your cartridge pressures with something like Quickload? Short of doing either semi-destructive testing or calculating this, how is the possibility of a defect in the material of every cylinder not an issue?

Ruger has Produced the "Single Six" frame with cylinders in .32 H&R Magnum form the Same Materials and Outside Cylinder Diameter.
CIP lists the .32 H&R Magnum at:
Pmax = 1400 bar (~20580 psi)
PK = 1610 bar (~23667 psi)
PE = 1820 bar (~26754 psi)
Cip also Lists the .22WMR at:
Pmax= 1600 bar (~23520 psi)
PK = 1840 bar (~27048 psi)
PE = 2080 bar (~30576 psi)
Based upon these Mandatory Manufacturing Standards for the Cartridges it is reasonable to believe ruger has designed safety Margins into the cylinders that are sufficient for safe use of .32 Long Colt or even .32 Extra long Colt sized Cartridges in modified Cylinders originally Machined for .22-Mag, or even .22LR cartridges as the Case body diameters are smaller than the .32 H&R case body diameter.
In addition, I have read of people modifying .32 H&R cylinders to accept .327 Fed. Mag. (SAAMI recommended MAP = 46000 psi)without any 'problems' in firing; so I think the cylinders 'proof' up to the .32 Long Colt as Modified.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

Chev. William

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
59
Dave P. said:
As a welder and sometimes machinist ( or the other way around ) I'd suggest you just get a different
cylinder. If you're paying someone shop rate for this work I suspect you will end up with more into it
than a different cylinder would cost.
Some times just because it can be done doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.
Dave

Getting a "Good" cylinder is both my, and my Gun Shop, intent.
I hope Ruger will agree so THEY can obtain possession of the "BAD" One.

Eventually I will get a Blued cylinder chambered for .32 Auto, and Stainless Steel ones chambered in .32 Extra Long, .32 Long Colt, and .32 Short Colt so I would have cylinders to actually fit the Cartridges i wish to shoot for my experiments.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

NikA

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My question was more related to the custom cartridges you've come up with and chambered cylinders in. For instance, I can't find reference to .32 Extra Long, and I know you indicated in your .25 ACP thread that you've designated several new cartridge lengths. How do you designate pressures for these? I believe there's a large safety margin, so I think you're fine, it just seems like you're very worried over this particular issue versus other possible issues with chambering cylinders in new cartridges.

Do you intend to use heeled bullets in the Colt cartridges? If so, shouldn't the chambers be drilled straight through? If not, why have you chosen the Colt cartridge family over the S&W one? Just curiosity here.
 

Chev. William

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
59
NikA said:
My question was more related to the custom cartridges you've come up with and chambered cylinders in. For instance, I can't find reference to .32 Extra Long, and I know you indicated in your .25 ACP thread that you've designated several new cartridge lengths. How do you designate pressures for these? I believe there's a large safety margin, so I think you're fine, it just seems like you're very worried over this particular issue versus other possible issues with chambering cylinders in new cartridges.

Do you intend to use heeled bullets in the Colt cartridges? If so, shouldn't the chambers be drilled straight through? If not, why have you chosen the Colt cartridge family over the S&W one? Just curiosity here.

The ".32 Extra Long Colt" is a Center Fire Version of The ".32 Extra long Rim Fire" of 1.150" Case Length
here is a table of The "Family":
Cartridge Name; Bullet Diameter;Shoulder Width;Body Width;Rim Width;Case
Length;Case Capacity.
.32 Long Colt (early) .312 .318 .318 .381 .916 ~13.1
.32 Long Colt (Late) .302 .318 .318 .381 .916 13.1
.32 Short Colt .311 .318 .318 .375 .650 9.3
.32 Extra Long RF .312 .318 .318 .377 1.150 16.5
(.32 Extra Long Colt .312 .318 .318 .377 1.150 ~16.5)
.32 Extra Long RF .312 .318 .318 .377 1.150 16.5.
32 Extra Short RF .312 .318 .318 .377 .398 5.7
.32 Long Rifle RF .312 .318 .318 .377 .937 13.4
.32 Long Rimfire .312 .318 .318 .377 .920 13.2
.32 Short RF .312 .318 .318 .377 .575 8.2
The .32 XLC can also be left at about 1.200" case length if desired and chamber length allows as that is about the Length of the reformed .327 Fed. Mag. when swaged down form .337" diameter to.318" diameter. obviously the Maximum allowable overall length of any of the above is the 1.400" of the Cylinder Length at the Chambers..

I do intend to use Heeled bullets for my .32 "Colt Family" (an Accurate Molds 311090A of about 90 grains).

Pressure Limits for my .25ACP design experiments are limited by the Parent brass designs at between 40,000PSI MAP of the .22 hornet or the 50,000psi MAP of the 5.7x28mm as an upper Bound in my Ruger Revolver frames.
Actual Pressures are not actually Known as I have no way to measure pressures.
The Maximum .25ACP loading I have fired to date are 3.1 grains of BE-86 behind a 50 grain FMJ and 3.0 grains of BE-86 behind a 63 grain Lead FN (not Chrono'd yet).
Chronograph results so far are at about 1275fps from a load of 1.89 grains of Bullseye behind a 63 grain Lead FN bullet.

The .32 Pressures will be held down to about .32 H&R Mag. or less as I Know That is safe in the Ruger Single Six with a Good Safety Margin (below .327 F.M. pressures).

For my .25 Caliber Use in my Stevens rifles , I will be limiting loads to about Trans-sonic range, ~1124 fps, in my workup in the rifles later.
When i get another Project completed (a Marlin "Levermatic" in .25ACP) it will be tested with "stronger loads as they were capable of firing the .30 Carbine and .256 Win Mag Cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
 

Hondo44

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Chev,

I don't think your gunsmith will be successful with Ruger. But, hey give it a try, no cost and nothing to lose.

However, obviously you have an investment in the cylinder and don't want to just chuck it out. So here's a Plan B:

Buy the gun the cyl was made for. Call Ruger, and complain about the porosity in the cylinder. It won't be the first Ruger has had to fix or replace including entire guns.

They'll send you a free shipping label, you'll have the gun back with new cyl in under two weeks. Put the original cyl back in the gun and resell it. You'll have your cyl for your project. If you want to pay for another cyl, ask them to fit a spare cyl as well.

That's the only way to get cylinders from Ruger.
 

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