357 maximum blew up

I know a lot of the Maximum guys hang out here so I wanted to point toward a thread in the Factory ammo and Reloading section on factory max ammo issues. please respond

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=239550

Prescut

Prescut said:

I know a lot of the Maximum guys hang out here so I wanted to point toward a thread in the Factory ammo and Reloading section on factory max ammo issues. please respond

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=239550

Prescut

Click to expand...

Precut.... we subjected Prototype Ruger Blackhawk .357 Maximums to extraordinary pressures, sticking cases and blanking primers without doing anything to the guns. Slow powders never gave a lick of trouble. What I never did during the hand loading was to use a medium burn rate propellant (let alone a fast powder).

It might be worth your while to pull a few bullets, weight charge, determine type of powder granule (flake, stick, ball).
David Bradshaw

Hello David,
I was really hoping you would come by here. There aren't a handful of folks who really know what it takes to blow a Ruger up. You may recall my threads on learning to reload in the last several months that you responded to. These weren't my reloads, but factory.

I did pull a few bullets almost immediately. I found ball powder that was so heavily compressed that I had to dig it out of the case to weigh it - approx 24g. The vendor is not telling what kind of powder. I was surprised that the granules seems to stick together as if moist.
The primers were merged with the brass casing absolutely flat. Without color difference, it was hard to tell the two apart.

Before blowing the Ruger topstrap off, I had shot one round thru my TC Encore with 26" barrel. You had responded several weeks ago to my thread about the TC Encore with - The maximum round really comes into its own with a rifle. I wondered what you meant by that and I was anxious to see what velocity. I got a reading around 2800 fps.
I'm still wondering if that is an example of what you meant, or is that velocity another sign that the round was severely double loaded? I shot the TC Encore last week after getting a stuck case out of the chamber. My gunsmith also checked it out and it appears to be in perfect condition.
always nice to see your posts, David.

While I have you here, I tried the recipe you mentioned of 4227 and loved it. My reloads are shooting awesome. I should never have shot the factory stuff. I trust my reloads now much more than factory.

Prescut
I'll see if I can get some pictures posted today.

Prescut.... photos always help.

Thanks for asking for a clarification on suitability of the .357 Maximum for carbine or rifle. I simply meant that a healthy velocity boost attends the long barrel with closed breech. Loads should NOT be heavier than for a Ruger or Dan Wesson, although COL (Cartridge Overall Length) isn't limited by cylinder length.

Provide all the particulars you can:
1) Bullet and bullet weight.
2) Powder charge:
a) weight case full of compressed powder.
b) clean powder out of case and weight primed case.
c) subtract weight of primed case from weight of charged case.

If your chronograph is correct, 2,800 fps too high. Example: a 180 grain @ 2,400 fps sounds better.

May guess, the commercial loads you fired exceed 80,000 psi. During development we fired quantities of Rocks & Dynamite. (A SAAMI proof load is 40% to 50% over standard.) Of all the hot stuff I loaded, I never compressed slow ball powder. Unlike gasoline, smokeless powder doesn't require an exterior source of oxygen to burn. The compression you describe is a true amateur caper, wherein juvenile impulse overrides common sense. Physics change between BURN and DETONATION.

Did the top three chambers of the cylinder blow off?
David Bradshaw

I'm with you David on the rifle barrel. My testing of my reloads with both revolver and
TC always shows increased velocity with longer barrel and no B/C gap to lose pressure. My reloading results are in the 4227 powder in a 44 mag thread right after this thread.
Only one cylinder chamber blew.
Prescut
I will get those pics up.

It's incidents like this that make me have a really bad feeling about several of the relatively new ammo makers that seem to be pushing the envelope on all their products. Several offer up stuff they call +P or +P+ for cartridges for which there is no such SAAMI rating. I'll occasionally load a "warm" recipe, but only from a respected source and never exceeding SAAMI specifications.

JMHO

Pics for Prescut







































Wow! Glad no one was injured!
Tim

Double wow! After seeing that I am VERY glad your ok, pres. Jack

Wow, crying shame. Is that powder in the last two pictures? Sure looks like an old shotgun powder I used to use, Winchester 473AA. If so, that is very FAST powder and would explain the excessive pressure.

Prescut.... your photos are a big help in at least beginning to assess what happened. We still don't know the bullet with which this ammunition was loaded. Is it a known jacketed handgun or rifle bullet. Weight?

Photos we would like to see
1) loaded round
2) headstamp
4) pulled bullet beside loaded round to indicate seating depth.

While I cannot read the headstamp, a rather fearsome pressure blew the primer pocket. The primer pocket blew before the chamber let go. Gas eroded the cashed around the pocket, in much the same way high pressure gas erodes the barrel face of a revolver. Whether, in this instance, extreme pressure venting the primer pocket contributed to rupturing the chamber, I cannot say. Loads we fired in the 75,000 psi zone blanked primers without blowing pockets.

Your description says three things about the powder: 1) ball powder, 2) heavily compressed, and 3) 24 grains.
David Bradshaw

David,
I will get the other pics up.

I believe that my memory was wrong about the powder. It looks like flakes, not ball to me.
I really don't know. what kind do you think it is?

Prescut

Prescut....
Looks to be ball powder. Some ball powders have flattened granules. You say the charge from a pulled bullet was 24 grains?
Bullet
1) Bullet make.
2) Bullet weight.
3) "Wheelbase"----length of bearing surface.
4) Measure bullet base to crimp cannelure----seating depth.

Save some unfired ammo. Pull a couple of bullets & weight charge. Keep contents of each cartridge in a sealed container.

Firing pin bushing appears set back. Appears there is light circumferential erosion of bushing around firing pin hole, not into hole. Photo #13 appears to show a disk-shape pattern of erosion in the wall of the chamber exit (throat). Is that erosion or a pile of debris? (I can't tell, but it looks more like erosion.)

Chamber split through bolt notch (typical with notch over chamber). The topstrap at the front of the cylinder window prevented more of the chamber from blowing.
David Bradshaw

Precut....
May be instructive to view photos of the Dan Wesson M-40 .357 Maximum.. That a chamber is sprung but did not blow may be thanks to offset bolt notches on the Dan. Or not. Stratospheric loads loaded the same can very wildly in pressure. This is a dirty little detail Cellar Scientists would do well to respect. The load which took apart the Ruger may have spiked sharper and harder than the same load in the Dan Wesson.
David Bradshaw

princeout.... if you took the pictures, many thanks.

Photo #13, clear photo showing, lengthwise, inside blown cartridge case, chamber lead, and exit hole (throat). Looking again at round area of erosion on wall of exit hole, 6 o'clock. If this truly is cavitation, I have only one theory: as a lengthwise strip of chamber broke away and bounced off the topstrap, the strip of steel, halted in its escape, refracted the detonation back at the throat with the focus of a SHAPED CHARGE.

Therefore, Precut, please let us know if this round spot on the throat is, in fact, cavitation.
David Bradshaw

David B,
Didn't take 'em, just pressed a few keys on the keyboard to post them up for Prescut. If he sends along the other pictures, I'll get them posted as well.
Tim

Wow! That sux. Glad you weren't hurt. Make sure you send the serial number to Coogs so he can scratch that one off the list. On the positive note you just caused my Maximum to be a little rarer. LOL again glad you weren't injured.

I saw a case like this with a Ruger SB and a S&W Mod 29.Person reloaded his ammo with a lee loader with a powder scoop. The scoop was for 2400 owner of the guns only had unique. The scoop held 18 grains of unique which he loaded under 240 grain JHP's
Three rounds and the S&W cylinder "jugged" and would not rotate. Out came the Ruger SB ,loads had to be driven out of SB cylinder but he kept on shooting At about 18 rounds the Ruger let go! Top strap gone ,top half of cylinder gone and the gun range had an interesting parts gun.
The forged S&W expanded and prevented further shooting. The Ruger ,cast frame,took all it could and detonated.

JStacy said:

I saw a case like this with a Ruger SB and a S&W Mod 29.Person reloaded his ammo with a lee loader with a powder scoop. The scoop was for 2400 owner of the guns only had unique. The scoop held 18 grains of unique which he loaded under 240 grain JHP's
Three rounds and the S&W cylinder "jugged" and would not rotate. Out came the Ruger SB ,loads had to be driven out of SB cylinder but he kept on shooting At about 18 rounds the Ruger let go! Top strap gone ,top half of cylinder gone and the gun range had an interesting parts gun.
The forged S&W expanded and prevented further shooting. The Ruger ,cast frame,took all it could and detonated.

Click to expand...

A tale of COMPULSIVE STUPIDITY. Illustrates, especially in the Super Blackhawk, how repeated firing of a gross overload may fatigue a perfectly strong part, in this case the cylinder. However, it does not make for a useful comparison between "drop forged" and "investment cast." The cylinders of S&W and Rugers are cut from round stock. As you note, the Smith cylinder was saved from further destruction when the gun locked up.
David Bradshaw

Well, a year has passed. Any further activity in this matter?