Bear Gun is it good enough?
- Thread starter jpickar
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CraigC
Hawkeye
Statement made purely out of ignorance. Do you have any experience with handguns on game? The myth that just won't die. :roll:victor6 said:
mohavesam
Hawkeye
CraigC said:
:roll: :roll:
CraigC
Hawkeye
I see no indication that "Seriously, carry a 12 gauge if in bear country!" was supposed to be funny. Leading with "seriously", would seem to preclude any humor at all.mohavesam said:
A 1oz 12ga slug has a poorer sectional density than a round ball, yet is even softer and more prone to deformation. A heavyweight hardcast revolver bullet of .44-.500 caliber and sectional density of .23-.27 will hold its shape, break bones, create a huge wound channel and penetrate about three times as deep.
But you are free to trust your one shot to less gun if you so choose.
CraigC
Hawkeye
No, it's my nature to counter those who post erroneous information and nonsense. Particularly those who just repeat myths and legends like this crap about shotgun slugs. Or the ignorant who speak with authority, like yourself. It is undeniable fact that heavyweight handgun loads are a better tool for the job. Penetration testing shows that the best of handgun loads penetrated 60% better than even the mighty Black Magic.
TCGuy said:
Lesseeeee, riding your bike at extremely high speed away from threatening bear, gyroscopic action of the bike wheels keep you steady through blast of .454 Alaskan. Good in theory, I sincerely hope you don't have to prove it correct!
PS: sounds like a great trip!
CraigC said:
You should let the fine folks of the Alaska DNR know this ... as they have posted erroneous information on their bear safety web page -
"A .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs are appropriate weapons if you have to shoot a bear. Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands."
You, sir, are a bore. Have a wonderful rest of your day.
CraigC
Hawkeye
This is exactly what I mean by people who don't know any better repeating whatever nonsense they heard, wherever they heard it. Did it never occur to you that some of us have danced this dance before? That crap is based on a very outdated USFS study from the 1980's. Their recommendation is based upon testing a friggin' 240gr JHP. We've come a long way in the last 30yrs and the heavyweight LBT gives up nothing to a rifle but range. That's not a theory or conjecture. Like I already said, even the best of slugs won't penetrate as well as a properly loaded revolver. Shotguns loaded with slugs are recommended by such folks because they're cheap, plentiful and most people already have one. Not because they're the best tool for the job.victor6 said:
And seriously, you want to trust an under-funded government entity more than those who have actually used the guns/loads in question?
The Inupiat wildlife officers carry shotguns. Two days before I got to Barrow, Ak in 2012, a young male Polar Bear came to town (by the elementary school). The wildlife officers responded, and we're able to drive the bear off with rubber bullets-try that with a handgun. The next day the bear showed up again, and was driven off with the rubber bullets. 5 hrs before I arrived, the bear showed up again. When pelted with the rubber bullets he became enraged, and charged. He was immediately stopped with a slug. The Bears don't know anything about sectional density. The Inupiat use what works.
gramps
gramps
OK CraigC, once more just to tick you off.
My son shot a charging 450lb grizzly bear with a 20GA SLUG. Oh my, he used a shotgun, and killed the bear. Sorry to disappoint you but the slugs didn't bounce off the bear. In fact they PENETRATED and KILLED the GRIZZLY bear.
OH but this can't be true as we have been told slugs bounce off bears. OH but wait, A HARD cast pistol bullet can take out a elephant!!! :lol: As tests have shown that hard cast bullets can and do break up when they hit bone. So ends their usefulness when they meet bone! A good jacketed bullet fairs much better than hard cast.
OK I am ready to hear your response. I will duck my head because I'm not as tough as grizzly bear! :lol:
John
My son shot a charging 450lb grizzly bear with a 20GA SLUG. Oh my, he used a shotgun, and killed the bear. Sorry to disappoint you but the slugs didn't bounce off the bear. In fact they PENETRATED and KILLED the GRIZZLY bear.
OH but this can't be true as we have been told slugs bounce off bears. OH but wait, A HARD cast pistol bullet can take out a elephant!!! :lol: As tests have shown that hard cast bullets can and do break up when they hit bone. So ends their usefulness when they meet bone! A good jacketed bullet fairs much better than hard cast.
OK I am ready to hear your response. I will duck my head because I'm not as tough as grizzly bear! :lol:
John
CraigC
Hawkeye
No, they use what they have.gramps said:
From another thread:jpickar said:
Careful, when folks start using overly exaggerated statements I assume it's because they have no cogent argument. I never said slugs wouldn't work. I surely never said they would bounce off. I have always contended that slugs are recommended because pump shotguns are cheap and plentiful, NOT because they're the best tool for the job. This idea that they are the Hammer of Thor is purely based in myth, not fact. Testing has proven this time and time again. Fosters are a joke, they are too light and too soft, being nothing more than a swaged lead thimble with less sectional density than a round ball. Even the hardcast Black Magic falls short because while heavier, it is still too light for its diameter.jpickar said:
Yes, we all know that YOUR SON killed ONE small bear with a slug. Big deal. How does this contradict anything that I've ever said on this subject? It doesn't. It has nothing at all to do with the effectiveness of handguns, because you have no clue how effective they are. This nonsense you posted about cast bullets shattering proves your ignorance. You really don't know anything about killing critters with handguns, do you? If you did, you wouldn't have made many of the statements you've made and we wouldn't be having this argument. Yet you post here with authority because your son killed one small bear with a slug. That somehow makes you an expert? One could easily kill a 450lb bear with a .357 but does that make it the best tool for the job? Certainly not. Fact is (real fact, not uninformed opinion), heavyweight hardcast revolver bullets create large wound channels and are guaranteed to penetrate better than ANY shotgun slug.
Here you actually outline the ONLY advantage a shotgun has over a handgun with a few stipulations.jpickar said:
1. A handgun fits into a holster on your belt and can be with you 24/7. Long guns get put down to do other things.
2. This only applies to the average person who has not spent any time building skill with a handgun.
3. A heavy for caliber LBT at 1100-1200fps is still more effective.
4. Bears don't run 60mph. They are also no quicker (or faster) than the Cape buffalo, rhinos, elephants, hippos and lions that folks have been stopping for two centuries. Every rule that applies to dangerous game in Africa applies to the great bears. Nobody uses shotgun slugs in Africa, or even anything resembling one. They use heavy bullets, not lead thimbles.
5of7
Hunter
The reason that most game wardens, or animal control people carry shotguns is because they are more versatile than a rifle of a handgun.
With a 12 ga. pump gun, one can use the appropriate ammunition to respond to whatever the situation is, ie rubber balls if all they want to do is sting the bear away from human habitat, buckshot if they want to sting it a little harder, and, if the situation calls for it, a heavy slug if they have to kill it.
It is also important to understand that animal control is nothing at all like being charged by an 800-1000 grizzly from 40 yds away unexpectedly.
The advantage of a heavy caliber handgun is that it is available even when one is fishing. Try fly fishing with a shotgun in one hand and a fly rod in the other sometime.
Is a handgun the best firearm to use to dispatch a bear in a self defense situation? Probably not, but it will be there when other types of guns are not. 8)
With a 12 ga. pump gun, one can use the appropriate ammunition to respond to whatever the situation is, ie rubber balls if all they want to do is sting the bear away from human habitat, buckshot if they want to sting it a little harder, and, if the situation calls for it, a heavy slug if they have to kill it.
It is also important to understand that animal control is nothing at all like being charged by an 800-1000 grizzly from 40 yds away unexpectedly.
The advantage of a heavy caliber handgun is that it is available even when one is fishing. Try fly fishing with a shotgun in one hand and a fly rod in the other sometime.
Is a handgun the best firearm to use to dispatch a bear in a self defense situation? Probably not, but it will be there when other types of guns are not. 8)
Craig the Inupiat can buy anything they want! They shoot at 800lb Polar Bears that are charging from 20 yards. You really must travel some.
gramps
gramps
CraigC
Hawkeye
Exactly! Shotguns offer the most bang for the buck and are the most versatile firearm available to law enforcement. They can be used to great effect for 'most' purposes. They are also the cheapest firearm available and let's face it, these are the most under-funded law enforcement agencies in the US. The fact that they are used successfully against bears is no indication that they are the best tool for the job, or that they are superior to big bore revolvers. In their own words, the USFA would rather issue .375H&H rifles for use against bears but cannot due to cost. Such a rifle has a very limited application in law enforcement and is a luxury most departments cannot afford.5of7 said:
They use what they have. They always have. Again, just because they use them, does not mean they're the best tool for the job or superior to big bore revolvers. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.gramps said:
I have been to half a dozen foreign countries and 3/4 of the states in the US, including Alaska and Hawaii and will be close to 90% by the end of the year. How is that relevant?
Because you refuse to acknowledge the fact that the Inupiat use what they want. These are not law enforcement. They are called wildlife officers, but not state funded. When a Polar bear is killed it is part of the Inupiat harvest. It seems like you have not spent time with the Inupiats from your comments.
gramps
gramps
CraigC
Hawkeye
Irrelevant blather.
buckeyeshooter
Blackhawk
I think the question here is more what type of slug is in your shotgun. If it is a Foster style.... then penetration might be an issue.
If it is a Berenneke, then you are shooting a hard cast.
Like the Barnes X bullet? The Remington Copper soild is a bigger version. I still have 9 of the 12 ga. Copper Solids in 1 3/8 oz. made in the early 1980's. (only the 1oz is made today). These are as effective as my .50 Alaskan with 535 grain Woodleigh's. I just wish some one would come out with a copper solid for my SP-10.... only Federal Fosters available at 785 grains. A 2 oz copper solid would be perfect for anything.
If it is a Berenneke, then you are shooting a hard cast.
Like the Barnes X bullet? The Remington Copper soild is a bigger version. I still have 9 of the 12 ga. Copper Solids in 1 3/8 oz. made in the early 1980's. (only the 1oz is made today). These are as effective as my .50 Alaskan with 535 grain Woodleigh's. I just wish some one would come out with a copper solid for my SP-10.... only Federal Fosters available at 785 grains. A 2 oz copper solid would be perfect for anything.
woodperson
Single-Sixer
For me I have probably have a better chance of actually hitting the bear with a shotgun and slug than I do with a .480 or bigger revolver. That might be true for many other people who are not handgun experts. I shoot a shotgun a hundred rounds per week most of the year and am used to handling them. I do not think the construction and velocity of the bullet matters much if it is a miss. I carry pepper spray while fishing in grizzly country and turn down the chance to fish spots where it looks like encountering a grizzly is likely. This spring we had a black bear attack and mauling in the Smokies and a death from one that got a lady about 10 years ago. Both instances the expert conclusion was that the bear was killing for food. But I do not consider that to be likely to happen again so I go fish with no protection.
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