How much energy do we really need?

I had recently transferred to Europe 3 revolvers (preparing for retirement): 5.5 SBH, converted to Bisley and 7.5" RH, both in 44 Magnum, and also unfired 7.5" Old Army, all 3 stainless.

After all paperwork was finished, I invited friends to try them, since 44 Magnum is still bit rare bird in my native area (357 is common), and 44 Rugers they had seen only in movies and magazines. SA Rugers are completely unknown to them.

Well, they did fire them, and raised some questions. However, before going to comment them, I would like to discuss something else first.

Since I mentioned that I have ROA, I was looking for a suitable loads, using something else rather than just a led ball, felling that a bullet like 240-250 grains will be a better choice if I take it as a side arm in a hunt.

So, i started searching what is available on the net and found videos about testing loads using 3 different bullets and 2 different propellants, done by Mike Beliveau. Here are those most interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdauzEFXMNc (test No. 5), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA (test No. 6). He was using some sort of LBT bullet, designed by Kaido Ojama, 255 grains.

Anyhow, if you look closer to those tests, you will notice that even very moderate load of 30 grains of FFFG gave in 7.5 ROA velocities of 744 fps, and penetration of 10+ jugs filled with water. If those jugs are about 8" wide, that is whooping 80" of penetration.

Assuming that going through flesh of any big game animal, penetration will be half of that one through water and plastic, that is still 40". Now, what animal has more than 40" across the chest, except largest bears and bulls?

If I remembered correctly, US Army specified that (at that time) new centre fire revolver round has to take down a horse on 100 yds distance, and 45 Colt was created to conform to those requirements. Well, used later by civilians in all kind of situations, standard 45 Colt load proved its reputation time and time again.

Now, back to my friends: they fired both 44 Magnum revolvers, first with ear protection, and after that, each of them fired one round without any protection, just to get feeling how 44 sounds in real situation. To make bit long story short, they told me that the blast is too much for them, they wish that the blast for the shooter is the same as from rifle, no more.

Well, after seeing those tests, I started thinking about my friends' comments, and 44 Special, and 44 Special Flattop, especially Bisley (also, one S&W 624-4 with 6" or 6.5 " barrel I missed), immediately came to my mind. 45 Colt in same revolvers also.

What is your experience? Do we really need those big boomers with ear shattering blast in the field for game less than grizzly?

P.S I do handload, so most likely I will download 44 Magnum.

Having hunted handguns for most of my life, and being a tried and true follower of the 44mag, I'll say without question that there IS a notable difference in terminal effect performance of the 44mag and something less potent, for example, the .357mag.

Without question, the 44mag recoils significantly more, but it also delivers more energy at 100yrds than the .357mag carries at the muzzle. My experience on killing deer in the Midwest with each has been that the .357mag is lack-luster past 50yrds, and 75-100yrds would be my limitation for the smaller mag regardless of what my accuracy might be. With a 44mag, my own accuracy becomes the limitation for effective range. Deer hit with the .357mag often do some running after a 75yrd hit, whereas the 44mag has dropped deer DRT at over 150yrds for me.

Very hard to say, no question that placement trumps all else, .22LRs have killed elephants when shot through the eye socket.

Hard cast, big bore slugs penetrate really well even with relatively low energy levels.

On one side of the issue, some say energy is irrelevant which is obviously untrue. Shooting a deer with a .950 JDJ, absurd to say the least, would be dramatic with approx 24,000 ft lbs of energy if you used something other than a solid bronze slug.

A .338 Win Mag might anchor a deer with shot placement that a .223 wouldn't. No precise answer to this question.

Suffice it to say that a hot .44 Mag is effective on anything in the lower 48. Don

Obviously, you don't need a whole lot to kill a deer at short range. The old standard .45Colt blackpowder load will kill any that walk graveyard dead. However, when you need it to do the same at 75-100yds and beyond, you need a little more velocity not only to keep your impact velocity at respectable levels but also so that your MPBR is a manageable figure. Much easier to connect on targets at the end of your effective range with a few hundred extra feet per second.

Energy itself isn't meaningless but in the context of comparing one cartridge to another, or determining the effectiveness of a given load, it is a useless figure for myriad reasons.

Energy is a poor measure of lethality. It does sell ammo, though. Holes through vitals kill, bigger holes are my preference.

Onty said:

Now, back to my friends: they fired both 44 Magnum revolvers, first with ear protection, and after that, each of them fired one round without any protection, just to get feeling how 44 sounds in real situation. To make bit long story short, they told me that the blast is too much for them, they wish that the blast for the shooter is the same as from rifle, no more.

What is your experience? Do we really need those big boomers with ear shattering blast in the field for game less than grizzly?

P.S I do handload, so most likely I will download 44 Magnum.

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Isn't there some hearing protection that can be used when hunting in the field with a 44 magnum or even a 357 magnum? I definitely would not want to go without. :shock:

Jimbo357mag said:

Onty said:

Now, back to my friends: they fired both 44 Magnum revolvers, first with ear protection, and after that, each of them fired one round without any protection, just to get feeling how 44 sounds in real situation. To make bit long story short, they told me that the blast is too much for them, they wish that the blast for the shooter is the same as from rifle, no more.

What is your experience? Do we really need those big boomers with ear shattering blast in the field for game less than grizzly?

P.S I do handload, so most likely I will download 44 Magnum.

Click to expand...

Isn't there some hearing protection that can be used when hunting in the field with a 44 magnum or even a 357 magnum? I definitely would not want to go without. :shock:

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They are hunting with rifles only (local laws), handguns are used for coup de grace, and as the last ditch of defense against wounded wild boars. So, in that perspective, my statement about 40" of the flesh across the chest is somewhat misleading. However, according to my friends, in majority cases they used handgun to take down wounded wild boar in thick bush, firing 3 or more times (those wounded boars could be quite aggressive) and shots were mostly broadside or and the certain angle. In such situation, rifle is cumbersome, especially if animal moves. To put any kind of ear protection in noted conditions is not practical at all. And last, not the least, heavy loads will have heavy recoil, not so desirable situation when you want to fire shots fast.

For that reason, knowledgeable hunters prefer 357, but they said that it's blast is too much, so they think about bigger calibre and heavier bullet but with less velocity and consequently less blast. Despite, they are still skeptical that later combination will be sufficient, because none of them tried it.

So, next time I am back over there, I will try to make a little test; fire in the clay full power 357 with 158 grains bullet, and do the same test with 44 H&G #503 Keith SWC (made by http://www.mp-molds.com/) at reduced velocity at about 1000 fps max. Clay will give us penetration and wound channel. This cannot replace real life occurence, that is the reason I would like to hear about your experience. Despite, hoping that this test will give us a ballpark.

Thanks to all.

Onty said:

Jimbo357mag said:

Onty said:

So, next time I am back over there, I will try to make a little test; fire in the clay full power 357 with 158 grains bullet, and do the same test with 44 H&G #503 Keith SWC (made by http://www.mp-molds.com/) at reduced velocity at about 1000 fps max. Clay will give us penetration and wound channel. This cannot replace real life occurence, that is the reason I would like to hear about your experience. Despite, hoping that this test will give us a ballpark.

Thanks to all.

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If you're going to do testing, use the standard for such testing, calibrated ballistic gelatin. Clay is a poor medium. Ballistic gelatin is the FBI standard. Don

Clay is a poor analogous material for living tissue. Many clays are non-Newtonian, such that they'll 'fracture' when extreme force is applied. You'll find that even wet clay, when hit by a large bullet, will crack apart as if it were dry.

Energy isn't meaningless, but it does mean far less than ammunition manufacturers would have you believe. Energy depends upon bullet weight and velocity, so increasing either does mean something in terms of killing power. BUT, Newton's Law is about the conservation of MOMENTUM, not energy. Energy can be inefficiently transferred, whereas momentum must be conserved. Momentum = (wt * vel /7000)

Taylor KO factor is another useful metric. TKO factor is simply bullet momentum times the diameter (wt * vel * dia / 7000) = TKO The TKO factor explains why a .45-70 seems to hit harder than a .30-06, even though they both have similar energy. It's basically a metric for how effectively a bullet diameter and weight will be at transferring momentum.

As far as hunting ear protection, I often keep a set of ear muffs clamped on top of my head. I'll pop them down over my ears when the game comes close. I have electronic ear muffs for this purpose, so I can still hear just fine until the instant of the shot. If nothing else, I keep a single ear plug in my left ear most of the day, then put in my right ear plug before the shot.

One shot isn't too bad. It's loud, but I've never even noticed the muzzle blast (I've hunted handguns for over 20yrs, 22LR to 475 Linebaugh) in the field, never noticed ringing ears. Our ears can survive one shot. The repeated shots of practice is what tends to do the most damage to ears.

DonD said:

If you're going to do testing, use the standard for such testing, calibrated ballistic gelatin. Clay is a poor medium. Ballistic gelatin is the FBI standard. Don

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Thank you for advise, but unfortunately, calibrated ballistic gelatin is just not available over there. However, for side by side comparison, quite wet clay might be OK. Another options are a soft wood or wet newspaper. We have to experiment and see what works.

Onty said:

Jimbo357mag said:

Onty said:

Now, back to my friends: they fired both 44 Magnum revolvers, first with ear protection, and after that, each of them fired one round without any protection, just to get feeling how 44 sounds in real situation. To make bit long story short, they told me that the blast is too much for them, they wish that the blast for the shooter is the same as from rifle, no more.

What is your experience? Do we really need those big boomers with ear shattering blast in the field for game less than grizzly?

P.S I do handload, so most likely I will download 44 Magnum.

Click to expand...

Isn't there some hearing protection that can be used when hunting in the field with a 44 magnum or even a 357 magnum? I definitely would not want to go without. :shock:

Click to expand...

They are hunting with rifles only (local laws), handguns are used for coup de grace, and as the last ditch of defense against wounded wild boars. So, in that perspective, my statement about 40" of the flesh across the chest is somewhat misleading. However, according to my friends, in majority cases they used handgun to take down wounded wild boar in thick bush, firing 3 or more times (those wounded boars could be quite aggressive) and shots were mostly broadside or and the certain angle. In such situation, rifle is cumbersome, especially if animal moves. To put any kind of ear protection in noted conditions is not practical at all. And last, not the least, heavy loads will have heavy recoil, not so desirable situation when you want to fire shots fast.

For that reason, knowledgeable hunters prefer 357, but they said that it's blast is too much, so they think about bigger calibre and heavier bullet but with less velocity and consequently less blast. Despite, they are still skeptical that later combination will be sufficient, because none of them tried it.

So, next time I am back over there, I will try to make a little test; fire in the clay full power 357 with 158 grains bullet, and do the same test with 44 H&G #503 Keith SWC (made by http://www.mp-molds.com/) at reduced velocity at about 1000 fps max. Clay will give us penetration and wound channel. This cannot replace real life occurence, that is the reason I would like to hear about your experience. Despite, hoping that this test will give us a ballpark.

Thanks to all.

Click to expand...

The shorter the barrel the louder and sharper the report. You do not require a high powered weapon for coup de grâce; a .38 or smaller will serve the purpose.

If one feels a burning need to hunt dangerous game with a handgun, then the large heavy hitting revolver will serve. :wink:

In my experience, the 45LC "service load" has much more power than it's paper ballistics suggest, and a lot less blast 'n noise than a .357 . I've shot deer with both, with equal results.....meaning that down is down and dead is dead.

As for the .44 Mag...no thanks. I tried it back in my youth and found it to be much more obnoxious than it's extra range was worth to me. These days, I leave it to the manly-man shooters. If I foresee needing a 100+ yd shot to anchor something, I'd rather have my old 30-30 carbine anyway.

DGW

Take a look at these: http://www.earplugstore.com/aosinranplug.html

Insert the yellow end in your ear and you can hear normal conversations, but are protected against the noise from gun shots. Not at all cumbersome, and combat tested.

Isn't Europe the home stomping grounds of vampires, werewolves, etc? Might want to take that into account. :wink:

I would like to suggest 44 special and 45 colt for close-in pistol hunting and kill shots. Either one should have more than enough energy to do the job on pigs/hogs with much less report. If handloading the power could be increased a little depending on the gun used.

For your stated use and purpose, you should be able to load a heavy for caliber cast bullet with a large meplat to sufficient velocity to give good penetration on even tough critters like a boar at close range.

If your rifle is out of service for finishing or taking a wounded or angry boar at close range, I would want the largest, biggest, meanest handgun load available and not worry too much about noise.

However, if you are talking a close on head shot, or one to the heart/lung or neck artery area, a 300 grain or heavier hardcast bullet driven to comparatively moderate velocity from the 44 Magnum (say 1000-1100fps) can be achieved without as much blast as a full on 44 Mag load. Having higher sectional density than the normal weight bullets (not sure what you are using now) it should give adequate penetration to do the job. Simple kinetic energy is not a good metric for your stated purpose. You want to be able to achieve adequate penetration to vitals, with a wide diameter wound channel and shock effect. Forget expansion for hollow points without sufficient velocity to make it happen and still achieve adequate penetration....you will need a lot of blast to do so. However, a well designed wide meplat Keith style bullet of heavier weight, driven to moderate velocity, will cause a large wound channel, travel straight, deliver good shock, and penetrate deeply enough to "let the air out", as we say, at close range.

VAdoublegunner said:

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DGW1949 said:

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Jimbo357mag said:

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That is the exactly my conclusion. Handloaded 44 Magnum, with something like 250-260 grains at 1000, 1100 (max) fps looks to me as more than enough. Do not have mold for 44-300 bullet, but I have intention of getting one.

Few years back I tried to start group buy for Bisley stainless 5.5" 45 Colt and 45 ACP. I organized group (20 guns), found importer/distributor in Canada, found distributor/exporter in USA, and when we were certain that everything was done, well..., without going into details, did not happen.

My intention was to find two revolvers that will swap cylinders, take second 45 ACP cylinder and bore it to 45 Schofield (still have at least 500 cases from Starline). Idea was duplicate one excellent load I found for S&W625 45AR, using 260 SWC and 2400 to get at about 1100 fps.

Hope I will have more luck next time when I decide to purchase Bisley in 45 Colt and 45 ACP...

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GunnyGene said:

Isn't Europe the home stomping grounds of vampires, werewolves, etc? Might want to take that into account. :wink:

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Yep! As a little kid I was watching old dogs reloading shotgun ammo. Some will drop in each shell few grains of salt and grain or two of black pepper. I newer knew what was the purpose of that: for good luck, against the spell or something else...

Speaking of Europe and boars, this article is about radioactive boars in Germany :shock: .

Twenty-eight years after the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, its effects are still being felt as far away as Germany – in the form of radioactive wild boars.

Wild boars still roam the forests of Germany, where they are hunted for their meat, which is sold as a delicacy.

But in recent tests by the state government of Saxony, more than one in three boars were found to give off such high levels of radiation that they are unfit for human consumption.

Outside the hunting community, wild boar are seen as a menace by much of Germany society. Autobahns have to be closed when boar wander onto them, they sometimes enter towns and, in a famous case in 2010, a pack attacked a man in a wheelchair in Berlin.

But radioactive wild boars stir even darker fears.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11068298/Radioactive-wild-boar-roaming-the-forests-of-Germany.html

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