I have only one 45acp, a P97dc that I bought a few decades ago. For years it was my primary home defense handgun and has never been anything other than totally reliable with any ammo I fed into it and more accurate than my old eyes are capable of achieving. But after a brief foray in both 40S&W and 380acp I "evolved" into 9mm for both home defense (a Glock 17) and concealed carry (a lc9s). But after not firing the P97 for what has turned out to be about 3 or 4 years, I took it to the range today. Just looking at the cartridges of both the 45acp and the 9mm made the 9mm look awfully puny in comparison. And firing the P97 reminded me of both how much I like this gun and how satisfying it is to fire that big caliber pistol, and do it with confidence and accuracy. And years ago I always thought of the P97 as far too big to use as a carry gun, but today I used an old pocket holster and found that the P97 slid nicely into my jeans pocket and would not at all be a hard gun to carry concealed. I must admit that I am now tempted to put the lc9s away for awhile and start carrying the P97.
The satisfaction of 45acp
- Thread starter vito
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That was almost my exact thoughts when i first put my then 9mm cartidges next to my buddies 45's. When i shot the 45s better, that got my attention even more. Size matters hen considering which bullet to fire. I dont know about pocket carrying my sr45 though. Is a p97 much smaller? I would love you be able to pocket carry my sr45 though! That would seal it for me! There has to be a better solution than iwb on my hip
Donnieweps
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What in Hades does size and appearance have to do with cartridge performance? Nothing.
Not dumping on the .45ACP, it's certainly a very capable self defensive round. However, ammo technology as well as operating at higher pressures has drastically cut any advantage the 45 has over +P 9mm and the 9mm has a huge advantage in mag capacity for a given size gun as well as reduced recoil.
Look at Lucky Gunner's extensive ammo, ballistic gelatin testing. The Federal +P 147gr HST ammo had a better permanent wound channel than any of the tested .45 rounds. Don
Not dumping on the .45ACP, it's certainly a very capable self defensive round. However, ammo technology as well as operating at higher pressures has drastically cut any advantage the 45 has over +P 9mm and the 9mm has a huge advantage in mag capacity for a given size gun as well as reduced recoil.
Look at Lucky Gunner's extensive ammo, ballistic gelatin testing. The Federal +P 147gr HST ammo had a better permanent wound channel than any of the tested .45 rounds. Don
Despite having a box full of holsters, some expensive, some cheap, I have almost entirely given up on IWB carry. With my mid section a bit fuller than I would prefer, I have yet to find a way to carry IWB comfortably except while standing. Since I spend much of the day sitting, either watching TV, on the computer, or driving my car or riding my motorcycle, IWB just pokes me uncomfortably even with a small gun. Being a bit heavy, I prefer having my shirt out of my pants virtually all of the time, whether it is a t-shirt and shorts, or a long sleeve shirt and jeans, so OWB is basically just as concealable as pocket carry. Pocket carry is just so easy and convenient, with not having to undo my belt and slide it through the holster loops, etc, that I often carry this way. I had always thought of the P97 as a full size gun, but at least in jeans it fits pretty well in my pocket and if the grip shows a bit, it doesn't matter because my untucked shirt covers it.
I just ordered a Bianchi OWB holster for the P97, which I think will also work easily for my sr40c. I'm not giving up on 9mm, or 38 Special in favor of 45acp all the time, but that big bullet is very comforting to have with me in case the SHTF.
I just ordered a Bianchi OWB holster for the P97, which I think will also work easily for my sr40c. I'm not giving up on 9mm, or 38 Special in favor of 45acp all the time, but that big bullet is very comforting to have with me in case the SHTF.
Armybrat
Buckeye
Belly band carry - helps control the Dunlap's Disease too. :mrgreen:
Donnieweps said:
If you ever load hollow point rounds, you are a hypocrit. Either way, that "ammo technology" that you referred to is in part expansion... ie size. Either way, you can search my past posts on why size matters. As for recoil, see above post. Back to the actual purpose of this thread...
And interesting thing I just learned about Pistol size... I bought a leather triple K holster designed for a Ruger P89 (as y'all know a big honking pistol, same size as the above mentioned P97 I think).... I bought this holster because it would also fit a Sig P226 and was on sale.... well, yesterday I was cleaning guns and realized the Sig p250 Compact I recently bought from a fellow member here I did not have a holster for.... guess what that Sig p250 compact fits in? yep, the same holster... seems when comparing this pistol to the others the only difference is the length of both the barrel/slide and grip....
Donnieweps
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Hypocrite eh? Don't think you know the definition of the word.
Who in the hell appointed you as the expert on ammo performance? Yeah, I load hollow points all the time for my .357 and on rare occasions for my 500 Mags. Notice most LE DON'T carry the .45? It's because the incremental difference between a +P 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP is minimal at best and the 9 usually outpentrates the .45 by a significant amount.
Objective discussions are fine but don't work when someone like you assumes he knows it all when you don't. Going to spend a lot of time searching for your posts, NOT.
Don't assume I'm a newbie, computer problems/site problems, my actual post count, not that that really matters is more like 5-600. Don
"What kind of holster do you use to pocket carry you p97?"
I found an old large pocket holster in my huge bin of assorted holsters that the P97 fits into, but there is no name on it, and the bottom is open allowing the muzzle to stick out. Obviously that would not be ideal for pocket carry as pocket lint could get into the barrel, but it would be slightly better than carrying with no holster at all. More than likely if I ever do carry the P97 it would be OWB, which is my preference for even my smallest guns. My current EDC, a LC9s, I carry OWB in a Bianchi leather holster that is very comfortable for all day carry.
I found an old large pocket holster in my huge bin of assorted holsters that the P97 fits into, but there is no name on it, and the bottom is open allowing the muzzle to stick out. Obviously that would not be ideal for pocket carry as pocket lint could get into the barrel, but it would be slightly better than carrying with no holster at all. More than likely if I ever do carry the P97 it would be OWB, which is my preference for even my smallest guns. My current EDC, a LC9s, I carry OWB in a Bianchi leather holster that is very comfortable for all day carry.
FYI. I purchased a Bianchi 7 Shadow 2, Size 10 leather holster for the P97 and it arrived today. It was far too tight to fit the gun. The holster is made for a Glock 19 or 23 but someone on the forum said it fit his P97. It was not even close. In fact, the holster was too small for even my SR40c. I am shipping the holster back and will start over looking for an OWB for the 97.
Dear Don,
You stated that bullet size doesnt matter... then went on to say that modern technology, which no doubt includes contact created size expanding bullets (hollow points), has allowed 9mm bullets to cut the advantage that the 45 has. You then confirmed that you use hollow points, in your next post. Again, their singular purpose is to increase bullet size upon contact. That is saying one thing (bullet size doesnt matter) and doing another (using bullets that expand to take advantage pf the modern technology that increases bullet performance my making it expand)... which is the definition of hypocritical.
I never compared cartirdge performance. You did. I just said that size matters.
On that note, yes, a 9mm hp can expamd to very close the size of a 45 fmj. But a 45 hp will expand to a much bigger size still. Bullet contact with the intended target is the prime objective, ie accuracy is king, and greater surface area of the bullet will allow for better odds of that happening. Yes, better penetration would also allow for that i crease as well. No one is arguing that... but to say that size doesnt matter and then use a hollow point is hypocritical. If size doesnt matter, use a 22lr out of a long barrel handgun.
I am not going to hijack Vitos thread any longer with responding to your anrgy filled ramblings. So, you may choose to not respond or feel free to have the last post if you choose... as the evidence for my statements cant really get any more plainly before you.
Thanks
You stated that bullet size doesnt matter... then went on to say that modern technology, which no doubt includes contact created size expanding bullets (hollow points), has allowed 9mm bullets to cut the advantage that the 45 has. You then confirmed that you use hollow points, in your next post. Again, their singular purpose is to increase bullet size upon contact. That is saying one thing (bullet size doesnt matter) and doing another (using bullets that expand to take advantage pf the modern technology that increases bullet performance my making it expand)... which is the definition of hypocritical.
I never compared cartirdge performance. You did. I just said that size matters.
On that note, yes, a 9mm hp can expamd to very close the size of a 45 fmj. But a 45 hp will expand to a much bigger size still. Bullet contact with the intended target is the prime objective, ie accuracy is king, and greater surface area of the bullet will allow for better odds of that happening. Yes, better penetration would also allow for that i crease as well. No one is arguing that... but to say that size doesnt matter and then use a hollow point is hypocritical. If size doesnt matter, use a 22lr out of a long barrel handgun.
I am not going to hijack Vitos thread any longer with responding to your anrgy filled ramblings. So, you may choose to not respond or feel free to have the last post if you choose... as the evidence for my statements cant really get any more plainly before you.
Thanks
Chill guys... just a miss read which happens all the time....
For me the reality is that 45acp is a better round for stopping any threat .... I won't argue with that and I also think a 1911 is probably the best for shooting the round.... (oh boy, that will get some!) but with all that said... my choice is 9mm.... probably because it is cheaper to shoot. Also, in the end I think 15 or 16 9mm rounds of any type will match up to 7 or 8 45acps....
For me the reality is that 45acp is a better round for stopping any threat .... I won't argue with that and I also think a 1911 is probably the best for shooting the round.... (oh boy, that will get some!) but with all that said... my choice is 9mm.... probably because it is cheaper to shoot. Also, in the end I think 15 or 16 9mm rounds of any type will match up to 7 or 8 45acps....
Donnieweps
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Yawn said:
You're so full of BS it's coming out of your ears. It was you, not I who "attacked", no "angry ramblings" (try spelling angry correctly) from me, just dismissive comments from you, the self appointed rugerforum ballistics expert. Who uses FMJs in defensive cartridges these days? I like any sane individual using a 9mm or larger uses top quality hollow points.
For the most part energy and bullet technology are king. I suppose you think because a 35 Remington has a larger bore dia, it's a more potent cartridge than a .338 Win Mag? A 38-40 more impressive than a hot .357 Mag? Spare me your nonsense. Don
Armybrat
Buckeye
I don't carry a .45 very often, but when I do it's my very compact Kahr CW45.blume357 said:
It fits nicely in my jacket pocket while riding in a Remora.
(the CM45 is even smaller)
Okay, first off I want to say I really enjoy shooting .45 acp. Especially with a 1911. It makes me appear to be a better shot than I really am.
Next I want to say all of this arguing about whether .45 or 9mm is better is really silly. I "Know" .40 is a better round than either one of them.
Besides this argument has been beaten to death a long time ago.
Next I want to say all of this arguing about whether .45 or 9mm is better is really silly. I "Know" .40 is a better round than either one of them.
Besides this argument has been beaten to death a long time ago.
Armybrat said:I don't carry a .45 very often, but when I do it's my very compact Kahr CW45.
It fits nicely in my jacket pocket while riding in a Remora.
(the CM45 is even smaller)
Now I'm wondering if the CM 45 is bigger than the CM9. I've never been recoil sensitive but there isn't much there to hang onto with these micro pistols.
Skoopski
Single-Sixer
Exactly, I decided a long time ago that the .45 Colt beat them all...Mike J said:
In the end, the better round is the one you shoot better. Any statistics don't count if you can't hit what your aiming at. You just shoot whatever you're best with.
Snowninja said:Exactly, I decided a long time ago that the .45 Colt beat them all...Mike J said:
In the end, the better round is the one you shoot better. Any statistics don't count if you can't hit what your aiming at. You just shoot whatever you're best with.
Exactly! Which was and is my original point in my original comment, and why i chose to carry .45 over 9. No argument over which is better... it never was my presuposition that one is better than the other. I consider from time to time going back to the 9 for Blumes reasons.., but will try a larger capacity 10mm first.
