RAP more like 3" at 25 yards... what's is good accuracy?

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steelshooterco

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While not a pistol shooter to any great extent, read this part of the forum as it is always informative and entertaining.

Had been wondering about the new RAP pistol and how it would be received especially from a quality aspect, being a new gun design.

Was catching up on my reading over the weekend and noticed the American Rifleman had done a review of the 9MM version, shooting it with a couple of brands of ammo and their conclusion was:

"As for the pistol I worked with, it operated flawlessly with no malfunctions throughout the entire testing process using 9 mm Luger ammunition ranging from bulk practice loads to premium defensive hollow points. Bench rested five-shot groups demonstrated solid defensive accuracy with group sizes averaging right around 3" at 25 yds."

Had been reading the posts by "Nh Rugerman," he'd indicated, "My RAP has an outstanding trigger and is capable of shooting 1" groups all day at 25 yards.." Revhigh had questioned this, and Nh Rugerman later clarified this, "I wrote that the RAP "is capable of shooting 1" groups all day at 25 yards". Please explain to me where I stated that I was capable of doing that.."

Think the NRA article provided some more objective light on this, and was surprised that even pricey pistols from Les Baer Custom (1911's) are talking a guarantee of 3" at 50 feet.

I'm a revolver and single shot pistol shooter, and generally look for much better accuracy than this.

So was wondering what is good accuracy at say 25 and 50 yards from a rested semi-auto pistol?

Would have expected much better than the 3" groups (50 ft and 25 yards), but would like to hear from the folks that shoot these a lot, as to what is expected accuracy for 5 shot groups at 25 and 50 yards.

The guns I currently shoot have to do much better than that, shooting out to 100 yards (off hand), and was really curious about acceptably accuracy from a good quality semi-auto pistol.
 

revhigh

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I think the Lee Baers are rated at 50 YARDS.... Not feet .... Just looked it up ... 2.5 inches at 50 YARDS.....

That is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

3 inches at 25 yards is what you'd expect any plastic duty gun to do. CZ75's and Sig 226's are considerably better than that.

Claims that a RAP can shoot into an inch by ANY MEANS all day long are pure unfounded BS.

Colt Gold Cup NM's typically shoot into 1.5-2 inches at 25 yards, although you may get lucky and get a Really good one that will shoot into 1-1.5 inches.

When the SR1911 came out ... It was supposedly reported to be a 2 inch gun ... according to rumor .... That rumor proved false, and it ended up being a 3-4 inch gun on average, the same as virtually any other entry level gun. If it had been true I would have been all over it, but I don't need another 3-4 inch government model.

So you can see how a 1 inch accuracy claim for a $450 plastic duty gun at 25 YARDS is simply never going to happen. Not even close.

REV
 

steelshooterco

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Rev,

Hey sorry about that old eyes a working there, Les Baer as you advised is 3" at 50 yards, not feet, so looking at it simplistic, twice as accurate as the 3" guns at 25 yds.

Thanks for you reply, that helped a lot.
 

revhigh

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Captain America said:
steelshooterco said:
...The guns I currently shoot have to do much better than that, shooting out to 100 yards (off hand)...

I'm really lucky because I'm certainly not capable of 1", 2" or even 3" groups at 100 yards on a regular basis.


I don't think he really meant that exactly ... Especially since he said OFFHAND.

I can easily hit a 6 inch gong at 80-90 yards almost every time with my Pythons. A little less with my GP's, but a lot of that is the trigger.

REV
 

Al James

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For ME....a semi auto defensive pistol that shoots under 4" at 25 yards is plenty accurate for its intended purpose. Sure 1.5" would be great and dandy but not at the cost of reliability or durability. I'm also not going to spend $3000 to obtain all 3. The difference between 1.5" or 2" and 4" at 25 yards [from a defensive handgun] does not keep me up at night.

Presentation and fast hits are far more important in my book. If I have to use a handgun for its intended purpose I'm not going to slow down my heart rate, line up my sights on exhale, regulate the sights perfectly, ride the disconnect, etc. I'm am going to land as many shots center mass as I can, as quickly as I can, to eliminate the threat. I've found some shooters that are OBSESSED with group sizes can't even effectively clear leather in a timely manner. That is because they spend to much time training against a micrometer instead of a more practical measure of ability with a handgun.....a clock.

I'm an accuracy snob when it comes to rifles but not defensive use handguns. I have been sucked into that paradigm in the past and have decided that it is just not practical for my needs. I feel shooters who are just wanting to defend themselves would be better served to buy more ammo and mags than to blow 3k on a really accurate gun they can't present or run effectively. Again, just MY $0.02....YMMV.
 

revhigh

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I agree Al, the only problem with your theory is the so far in my life ... Exactly 0.00% of my handgun use has been self defense. The remaining 100% has been range use ... And most range use involves accuracy.

Also ... There is absolutely zero reason to think that greater accuracy means less reliability .... At least it never has with guns I own, but I pretty much only own top shelf stuff.

Hard to believe you're an accuracy snob in rifles but don't care about accuracy in pistols.

The most expensive guns i ever bought were my GC's .... And they were about $600 And $700.

Higher levels of accuracy are ALWAYS better.

REV
 

Al James

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It shouldn't be hard to believe that people are practical when it comes to guns.

You drive a Prius right? Its practical, economical and gets you from Point A to Point B right? If I came along telling you that you needed to spend 80k instead of 40k for something a little faster you may not agree because its just not practical for you and your needs. I'm that way about handguns.

Rifle accuracy is necessary in order to hit targets at rifle distances. I don't own pistols for shooting at paper targets at the range. I don't need bragging rights or to say my handgun is the "best" or most accurate. I hope you aren't one of the paper shooters that can't clear leather or make fast hits. Remember it's all about priorities REV :wink:
 

Rei40c

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I feel the long range values matter not because it matters to me how I may hit at 50.. or even 100 yards but because that diversion may mean a quarter inch at 15 yards which is the range I'm more concerned with.

The issue with making extremely accurate semi auto handguns is a very old and well known for over 100 years. The tighter you make them (the less movement of parts and tighter tolerances, and a tighter lockup) a more accurate handgun is the result. The more loose they get the more forgiving they are in terms of malfunctions. Remember the ideal for accuracy would probably be a single shot bolt action firearm which is completely inappropriate for the assigned task of a defensive pistol. So after that everything else is a compromise with the ideal hovering between "accurate enough" and reliability. Most pistols on the market today hover just about in the middle of those two extremes.

Some side more towards the accuracy side while others side more towards the reliability. But I'll tell you this Rev, I believe if you took an off the rack CZ75 and an off the rack Glock 19, you would shoot more accurately but you will probably be the first to reach malfunction assuming sustained fire competition with the idea of simply firing until you see who malfunctions first. So I don't believe accuracy has no cost. It does. It's cost is increasing tolerances to tighter levels all the while increasing the likelihood of malfunctions the farther towards the accuracy at any cost spectrum that you go.
 

s4s4u

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I agree with Al, for a personal defense pistol 3" @ 25 yards is plenty good. For a hunting pistol I like to see that size group or better @ 100. It is all in the application.
 

FergusonTO35

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If I could do 3" at 25 yards with any of my handguns I would be ecstatic. On a good day I can consistently do 3" at 10 yards with any of my Glocks or S&W wheelguns. 25 yards is Marlin 1894 distance to me! 8)
 

gunman42782

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You know what, if you had to shoot a bad guy at 25 yards, I bet he won't notice the difference between a inch group and a 3 inch group!
 

revhigh

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gunman42782 said:
You know what, if you had to shoot a bad guy at 25 yards, I bet he won't notice the difference between a inch group and a 3 inch group!


If you shoot a bad guy at 25 yards .... You're most likely going to jail ....

The above is a ludicrous pov ... So you're saying you buy a certain level of accuracy at 25 yards depending on the use of the gun ? Me ? I want the most accuracy in any gun I buy. No matter the purpose.




REV
 
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Since I was quoted on the OP, I feel it appropriate to comment...first of all, the NRA review is based on ONE shooter and ONE pistol, not sure that qualifies to define the accuracy of all RAP pistols...( I have also heard but not seen personally that Hickok fired an 'approximate 4" group at his 100 yard gong', that doesn't qualify as the standard either...does it?)

I stated that my pistol "was capable of shooting 1" groups all day long at 25 yards".I then qualified that to be clear, that I am NOT capable of shooting those groups but that specific pistol is capable. And I know for a FACT, regardless of anyone's opinion, that THAT pistol is capable because I was told so by the gentleman who used it as a test pistol in a ransom rest...

If folks would read carefully, they would understand...

To think any one person can determine what the accuracy POTENTIAL of any gun manufactured today is, is just plain unrealistic, in order to determine the absolute accuracy of any weapon, numerous other factors have to be considered and removed, I.e the human factor, the ammunition utilized, the atmospheric conditions...inside or outside...so I know what I know...I don't need any forum member to believe it or not believe it and I have enough experience here to know who the folks are whose opinions I respect and those who bloviate with zero personal knowledge...

And as far as accuracy in a personal pistol is concerned, I live by the DVC standard that Colonel Cooper taught me many years ago....Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas...that, along with the proper mindset and color code is good enough for me..I, too, believe that rifle accuracy is much more critical in the real world than pistol accuracy...too me, paper punching is pleasure...and not critical..while taking a long rifle shot in a hunting scenario, the hunter has the moral obligation to not take the shot unless he is confident he can kill the target cleanly, and humanely...

Good evening gentlemen...
 

revhigh

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So ... There's a big difference between a 2 inch rifle at 100 yards and a 4 inch rifle at 100 yards ? Is the deer going to be able to tell the difference ? But the difference between a 1 inch gun at 25 yards and a 3 inch gun at 25 yards is insignificant and 'unnecessary' ... And the 3 inch gun is 'good enough' ....

You can now see how foolish that argument is ..... Would you want a 4 inch rifle at 100 yards ? I sure as hell wouldn't. Most would say that rifle is junk.

REV
 

Danno

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revhigh said:
.... At least it never has with guns I own, but I pretty much only own top shelf stuff.

REV

Rev....I'm always entertained by your comments. I'm curious, tho. If your had $400 to spend on a 9mm handgun, what would you buy? That's kinda my max.

I must say, I had a SR9c and it was 100% reliable and pretty damn accurate. Traded it for a S&W 908s which is thinner, easier to carry, seemingly lighter, VERY comfortable in my hand (due, I'm sure, to it being a single stack) but not as accurate. Accurate enough, though for personal defense.

I figure I can always pick up another polymer gun but the 3rd Gen Smiths don't come along often in my neck of the woods. And this one is in wonderful shape.

Been thinking of a full size for home and range use. SR9 (E model or reg full size) is where I'm leaning. Either can be had for ~$350, more or less.

I'm intrigued by the RAP but curious to know your take on other pistols in the $400 range.

Dan
 

revhigh

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I'd buy a used FULL SIZE CZ75B ... Or a used P226 if I could find one.

You're getting a vastly superior gun than those listed above for not much money. I paid $399 for my 226 in mint condition, $249 for my P225, and $300 for my used 75B, but that was several years ago. There's probably a dozen or more members here that bought 75B's after I started singing their praises ... And none that have complaints ... Most have become CZ CONVERTS.

Once you experience one of the two above ... You'll never even think of any other brands.

REV
 

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