SR40C Loaded or empty when carrying
- Thread starter tcme64
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why would you ever consider carrying unloaded? In a crisis you'd want to shoot without racking
I normally do carry loaded. I had a bad experience a few years ago with a brand new Springfield Armory XD40. First round I chambered the gun went off. I did not have finger on the trigger. It racked very hard for some reason and went off. First time in my many years with guns of any type. But no problems since.
I am now carrying my SR40C and what happened with the other gun is always in the back of my mind. I guess my question should be has any one ever had an issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am now carrying my SR40C and what happened with the other gun is always in the back of my mind. I guess my question should be has any one ever had an issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OldePhart
Blackhawk
If you're not comfortable carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber switch to a DA revolver...seriously! Most encounters occur at very close ranges and you may actually be fending off an attacker with weak hand while drawing, etc. A pistol with no round chambered is better than nothing...but only by a small margin.
I was uncomfortable carrying a Glock on the motorcycle because of the slight chance that getting punted off by an SUV could leave me tumbling down the road in such a manner that the holster could break and pull the trigger, etc. Very, very slim chance of that happening but if you're tumbling down the road the last thing you want to be thinking about is one more issue so I have an SP101 for carry on the bike. I considered carrying the Glock unchambered...but then I would have to remember (under stress) whether a round was chambered, etc., etc.
I was uncomfortable carrying a Glock on the motorcycle because of the slight chance that getting punted off by an SUV could leave me tumbling down the road in such a manner that the holster could break and pull the trigger, etc. Very, very slim chance of that happening but if you're tumbling down the road the last thing you want to be thinking about is one more issue so I have an SP101 for carry on the bike. I considered carrying the Glock unchambered...but then I would have to remember (under stress) whether a round was chambered, etc., etc.
OldePhart. Good point and I agree with is the gun loaded or not. I usually do carry loaded unless I am some place I do not feel is needed which is not very often. I have carried for many years. Have been through training of all kinds. Have trained with our local SWAT team. (That's Cool Stuff) But that one time my Springfield fired on it's own gave me an entirely new respect for all guns. Then they come out with the recall that the gun could fire without pulling the trigger. But stuff happens.
MountainWalker
Single-Sixer
That is called "Catastrophic Learning" and it is pretty hard to get out of our minds when something like that happens. Example: Cave Boy finds a new cave and goes in to explore only to find a big hungry cave bear who nearly kills him before his escape. Now every time he comes across a new cave, what do you think he is thinking about??tcme64 said:
The Ruger has the built in safeties in addition to the thumb safety, seems like that is pretty safe with a chambered round. However a nice little J-frame 642 may just provide extra peace of mind while still being a viable defense tool.
Have not been eaten by a bear "YET" but have had a striker fire go boom. Will just keep carrying my SR40C. Everything I read for the most part is positive.The safety features of the SR series are quite different than those of the XD series. Namely, to rack the slide properly on an XD, you are depressing the main safety on the firearm. Standard argument... that's 1 in a million... which may be true, but is enough if your that one... and it only takes one time. The SR series has a better safety protocol system, and one that would have more likely caught that from happening since the main safety mechanisms are not disengaged in order to rack the slide. But more often then not, it will be user error as opposed to what you went through. People's response, especially on a gun forum, is "this is my safety", and they point to their index finger... as if they have forgotten that a firearm can discharge at times without a trigger pull. And that argument only carries a shred of weight with anyone who doesn't deal with people on a regular basis. Everyone has dumb moments, and I see a lot of them. I also do a lot of them. Dumb moments happen with firearms too (let me know if you need stories of this). It isn't that someone is less than in practice, they are human. The fault comes in when they ignore this fact. The push is to mitigate these moments through proper handling practices, but exhorting that alone as the final solution to solving this has always seemed foolish to me. As the Bible says, pride comes before the fall. Are these the same people that don't wear a seat belt or a life jacket, or are they hypocrites. I am not for regulations, especially such as California. But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water and there-bye not utilize smart ideas. I carry an SR45 daily. It is fully loaded with a loaded mag on my other hip. I am carrying both right now, and have been comfortably doing so all day. It is very safe in my crossbreed supertuck holster. But, it is also very safe when I remove it from the holster, because of consistent handling practices AND a fantastic safety system. A safety system that, for matter of record, is very very easy (WITH ZERO LOSS OF TIME DURING DRAW OR ANY OTHER PART OF WEAPON UTILIZATION) and natural to disengage when I am wanting to do so, and much more difficult when I don't want to.
One more thing to think about. Racking a slide is noisy, and may not be a good idea in a self defense situation (sometimes in those situation, silence is a must). And, in most states, racking the slide can and often is viewed as an act of aggression - threatening with a deadly weapon - often felonies. If I get into a potential self defense situation, I can either click the thumb safety off prior or part of my draw... because the round is already chambered. People will not know I have a weapon until I am intending to make use of it. And, if nothing comes of it... I walk away without any implications as well. The act of removing my weapon in order to rack the slide is most likely a brandishing crime... even in open carry states.
Hope that all helps.
One more thing to think about. Racking a slide is noisy, and may not be a good idea in a self defense situation (sometimes in those situation, silence is a must). And, in most states, racking the slide can and often is viewed as an act of aggression - threatening with a deadly weapon - often felonies. If I get into a potential self defense situation, I can either click the thumb safety off prior or part of my draw... because the round is already chambered. People will not know I have a weapon until I am intending to make use of it. And, if nothing comes of it... I walk away without any implications as well. The act of removing my weapon in order to rack the slide is most likely a brandishing crime... even in open carry states.
Hope that all helps.
MountainWalker
Single-Sixer
What a common sense, realistic and refreshing post. IMO a thumb safety on a Ruger SR or 1911 is a very good idea.Yawn said:
Thanks Blackhawk. Good reply. The biggest problem I see with flip flopping between carrying loaded and unloaded is it increases the chance for human error. But always treat every gun as if it is loaded.
I have been teaching my 11 year old Granddaughter to shoot and gun safety. At home I will check a gun to make sure it is empty and then hand it to her and she has to check it also. We do this often. Kind of freaks my wife out. She wonders if she is old enough for guns. Heck she is old enough to hunt. So yes. Just something I am anal about but embeds into her brain to treat all guns as if they are loaded. Enjoying spending this time with her. She is begging to go shoot the AR-15s. She will love them.
ANYHOW. Thanks for all the replies everyone.
I have been teaching my 11 year old Granddaughter to shoot and gun safety. At home I will check a gun to make sure it is empty and then hand it to her and she has to check it also. We do this often. Kind of freaks my wife out. She wonders if she is old enough for guns. Heck she is old enough to hunt. So yes. Just something I am anal about but embeds into her brain to treat all guns as if they are loaded. Enjoying spending this time with her. She is begging to go shoot the AR-15s. She will love them.
ANYHOW. Thanks for all the replies everyone.
Thanks Mountain Walker, and to you tooTCME64. I actually had one more thought today walking through the store. Let's say that your scenario is on in a million, and it just happened to happen to you out on the range or even racking the slide to load for home defense. Better to happen then were you are in your clear mind frame and therefore at your likeliest to use best practices and judgment, verses it happening when you are racking the slide to load the weapon for a self-defense situation. I wrestled with similar things when I first started thinking personal/family defense. My conclusion is that an unloaded weapon, even with what I would deem as quick loadability, is still an unloaded weapon... a not ready to use self defense tool.
Blessings
Blessings
MountainWalker
Single-Sixer
Yawn, the malfunction of the XDs pistol(discharge when racking slide) has been fixed by Springfield Armory. I am completely confident that these pistols are now 100% safe. I am sure you and everyone else will point a pistol in a safe direction when charging chamber, as well we all should do. I think it is perfectly safe and prudent to keep a home defense gun un-chambered with a full magazine, ready to be quickly charged. Perhaps you have thought this out too far to come to an all or nothing conclusion. I keep my Glock 23 hidden out of view, but easily accessible ready to be racked in case of need. I can assure you it is ready to use as self defense tool.
Another low cost option: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/391612/stack-on-strong-box-safe-personal-safe-with-electronic-lock?cm_vc=ProductFinding
The original question was if it was safe to carry chambered. I would say yes with a proper holster and professional training.
Sure don't want this to happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTGmTrQXrwg
Another low cost option: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/391612/stack-on-strong-box-safe-personal-safe-with-electronic-lock?cm_vc=ProductFinding
The original question was if it was safe to carry chambered. I would say yes with a proper holster and professional training.
Sure don't want this to happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTGmTrQXrwg
MountainWalker
Single-Sixer
hittman said:
Yes! With some practice, the simple little J-frame can be a viable self defense tool. The actual likely-hood of actually using a pistol in self defense is remote, but handling on a daily basis represents a real risk. I would think that shop owners in some areas have more risk than the rest of us.
The use of force is really fraught with many pitfalls. Most are not aware and think that since they are the good guys, they are entitled to blow away a "dirt bag" and it's going to turn out like they were one of good guys on NCIS. This is a place to start: http://useofforce.us/
MountainWalker said:
Mountain Walker,
I think you misread my comments in the post you responded to with this response... I was first making a point to the OP of another reason why having an unloaded gun when CARRYING is not a good idea (since he orginally asked about carrying). Even if XD fixed a problem, my comments still stand for what they are. And as for home defense gun... my comments still stand there as well.
MountainWalker said:
Well, I appreciate the compliment up top, but aside from that... I don't think you and I are on the same page. And frankly, you contradicted yourself. You said that some think too much about carrying, and then sighted the risks of carrying... in a way to attempt to insight us to think through the risks. Anyway OP, hope all of this helps!
MountainWalker
Single-Sixer
Yawn: Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you. Use of your SR45, fully loaded and with thumb safety engaged, makes good sense for carry or home defense. Also think it is perfectly reasonable to have a gun like the Glock with mag loaded and empty chamber for home defense. For self defense carry, an empty chamber is not acceptable as there may not be enough advance notice to rack the slide. Also, racking the slide may get a person accused of brandishing the pistol, 3 year mandatory sentence in Florida if convicted.
The SR pistol with thumb safety is sort of like the 1911 and with some real advantages over a weapon like the Glock.
The SR pistol with thumb safety is sort of like the 1911 and with some real advantages over a weapon like the Glock.
MountainWalker
Single-Sixer
I think your explanation of the safety advantages was very good indeed. It is not necessary for us to be on the same page with everyone, but we might be closer than you think. I think that hittman's comments were in reference to thinking too much about carrying an auto, which was in response to OP's original question. He suggested that folks worrying about carrying the auto could get a wheel gun as a more comfortable alternative.Yawn said:
I believe very strongly in the right of self defense, but we must be cautious and knowledgeable of the pit falls that are inherent in the legal system. My wife and I were challenged by a local low life who repeatedly shouted "This is a holdup!" Turned out that he was not armed, so I did not pull my gun out. At the time, I believed that I would have been in the clear to shoot him. I found out that this notion was mistaken and that is not how the law enforcement and legal system works in a actual shooting. Many of us operate in the mistaken belief that we are the good people and that if we shoot a dirt bag, it is no big deal. Truth is that making those decisions on the spur of the moment is very difficult. If there is a conflict or incident the law is going to look at it as a conflict between two citizens. It will be up to you or me to prove that what we did was necessary. Personal friends, an attorney and local prosecutor both advised against CCW stating that there are too many opportunities to make a mistake. I really feel for the LEO who is put in a difficult position and must make a life or death decision on the spur of the moment. It would seem prudent to be well aware of the law and reserve the use of force for the most extreme conditions. Many times there are other work arounds to using force. Too many of use believe that the gun is the total answer and fix on caliber, mechanism etc, when in fact more effort should be spent on learning how to deal with the legal issues if we forced to protect ourselves.
Having said this, I think this is a topic for another thread in perhaps in a concealed carry section.
OldePhart
Blackhawk
I signed up for a program called (I think, too lazy to go to the bedroom for my wallet) "Texas Law Shield" - it's a program that has contracts with gun-law-savvy attorneys in most areas and an 800 number to call for assistance. It's amazing how many basic criminal lawyers know absolutely nothing about how to defend a CHL case and in many cases "Joe Blow Down the Street" will do a VERY poor job of representing the CHL holder. I don't recall the cost of the program, but they will have a knowledgeable attorney on your case from the get-go. Basically, if you do have to defend yourself you call them and then shut the heck up until somebody from their group is on the case.MountainWalker said:
Too often the CHL citizen thinks they've nothing to worry about but, unfortunately, as you've said that is not the case. Not only do most lawyers have no idea how to defend a CHL case, many, many cops have no idea what a CHL is and is not allowed to do. In a case that happened in my area a guy shot a coyote in his yard. City cops arrested him for discharging a gun in the city limits. He agreed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor...ended up paying a large fine and losing his CHL for two years...and what he did was actually legal. The coyote was attacking his dogs and under Texas law a citizen has a right to discharge a firearm to protect domesticated animals on their property from an immediate threat. Municipal laws can't trump that state law. He should never have been arrested but the cops didn't know the law and the local prosecutor didn't know it or didn't care. The guy called a basic "criminal lawyer" in the phone book and the lawyer recommended that he plead and pay the fine to avoid jail time and get home in time for dinner...
Even though it's called "Texas Law Shield" they actually are expanding into most states that permit CC so folks might want to look into it. I don't have any relationship to the company other than that I'm a customer. I hope I never have any contact with them other than to pay my dues each year... Well, actually they periodically have seminars that are pretty good though I've not been able to fit any of them into my schedule so far.
One lawyer with experience with gun law that I've talked to said the most important thing that any CHL holder should remember is that "a night in jail is neither the end of the world nor a criminal record. Worry less about getting home tonight than you do about the ultimate resolution of your case." The entire criminal legal system for small crimes in this country is based on getting "criminals" to plead out on cases that the district attorney often knows darned well would never make it to court, let alone to a conviction.
MountainWalker
Single-Sixer
OldePhart: Wow! I would say that you are well informed and aware. That is exactly what I was talking about.
Well my post did change topics but that's fine. Interesting reads, opinions and facts. I live in PA and we fortunately have the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground. The Castle Doctrine for the most part has you covered in YOUR home or Your Car. We all know there is red tape and attorneys that would try to turn the table on you but if someone kicks your door in and ENTERS your house you are good to do whatever you feel is needed to protect your home, self and loved ones. Stand Your Ground has you covered also but many more loop holes for sure. I have been carrying for many many years and thankfully never even had to think about drawing my weapon and I pray I never have to. But over the years I have read, been coached by LEOs that are my friends and I am always mentally running through my head scenerios about when it would be OK to draw and or fire my weapon. This is part of practicing and safety. In many situations you have seconds to make that choice and the person(s) causing you fear are not interested in having a conversation about the situation. I follow the 4 color rule. White, yellow, orange and red. If you do not know what it is google it. Simple very valuable mental tool to keep you alert and aware of your surroundings. This rule has the great potential of helping you eliminate possible confrontation.
