Understanding Safety's and 45's

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Yawn

Blackhawk
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Dec 4, 2010
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646
Greetings all,

I am looking to purchase a .45ACP handgun... but before I do, I need to understand more of the internal workings (that what I know now) to know what I am getting...

(Side note: I guess the same could be true for the most popular calibers, as someone makes the same style of gun for each (I.E. 1911 in 9mm... although I haven't seen a 1911 in .40. Yes, I know it isn't a TRUE 1911 if it is in 9mm, but you get the point.))

Wait, actually, that lead into the next point really well. Ruger has two current types of production line .45ACPs that are quite different beasts, as 1911's are different then a Glockesque gun. Then there are guns like the XD/XDM in 45 that seems to be a marriage of the two platforms (or at least an attempt at their love child). Maybe to narrow this down a bit, we can start with those three firearms and what I know about them. Can you help me with what I am missing?

I know that an SR45 is just like my SR9, and very much like a Glock but with a thumb safety, magazine disconnect, loaded chamber indicator, and the name Ruger on the side. Cocked is a half cycled position and that it is a striker fired weapon. I am not sure if the barrel is "supported" or not, and I am not sure what that means anyway. I know my SR9 is about a 5 pound trigger pull... SR45, Glock 45? I think this is the system I understand the most, but what am I missing?

I know that the SR1911 has a Colt Series 70 esque firing system. I know their is a difference between a series 70 and a series 80 and that that difference has to do with a type of firing pin block, but I lose it past that. 1911s generally have the grip safety and a thumb safety and have an external hammer. I believe that they are single action gun's, cocked is to a full cycles position, and that that is what gives them a often light trigger pull, 3 pounds or less normally? What am I missing here?

I know that the XDm-45 has a match grade barrel, but I don't know what that means. I know that it is a striker fired gun, but that the striker loads fully on a cycle (not half like a Glock/SR), making it a single action in a sense... it therefore looks like that from their it is set-up like a 1911 without the thumb safety. But, that is what it looks like on the outside... I am clueless about how the inside works and how it relates to the other two systems. Is this system a kin to the CZ system?

Ok, I know that I am asking a lot here... but if you have a few moments for school to be in session, that would be great! I also know enough about the P series type platforms to know that I wasn't and am not interested in that platform of handgun... wasn't when I bought my SR 9 and still am not. Thanks folks!!
 

TRanger

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A bit of an involved post. It might help to clarify what your intended purpose for the gun is.
You seem to be on the mark for the most part. Many people prefer striker fired guns for their simplicity of operation. Ruger, FN, and S&W are offering striker fired guns with manual safeties for those who prefer that option.
A 1911 with manual safety engaged and grip safety operable has the entire fire control system locked. The firing pin lock on a series 80 type gun is superfluous. The operation of either does not differ. One must train himself.to sweep that manual safety off on the draw before utilizing it for defensive purposes. A 1911 typically has a relatively light, consistent trigger pull of about five pounds; not three. Three would be too light and not desireable on a defensive piece.
Perhaps this will help get you started. It boils down to what your own personal preference is. Select one and train with it.
 

Mike J

Hunter
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You already know about the SR guns. I don't own one but my biggest dislike about them is the magazine disconnect safety.

I own an old XD-40 you are right about it being basically single action (the striker is fully cocked). I haven't shot one of the XDm's though I believe they have a lower bore axis than the old XD guns which I believe is probably a good thing. This is not from experience but I have read many posts saying the old XD-45 would not feed SWC ammunition reliably but the XDM-45 will. Might be something to consider depending on what type of ammo you plan on using. I tend to think the match grade barrel thing from XD is hype but they are accurate guns. They are made in Croatia & were known as the HS 2000 before Springfield sat up the deal to market them here.

The 1911 is the 1911. I really like the ergonomics of this gun. I am a long way from an expert but the series 80 has a firing pin block. The series 70 style doesn't have one. The SR 1911 uses a strong spring with a lightweight firing pin instead of a FPB.

Good Luck with whatever you decide on.
 

welder

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The safety question has been covered well here. I'll add my 2 cents on the fully supported chamber v. the non fully supported chamber.

Glock for example uses what is known as a "not fully supported" chamber. What that means is, at the lower rear end of the chamber and atop the feed ramp, a bit of metal is removed that causes a small portion of the underside rear of the cartridge case to be exposed, thus unsupported, or not fully enclosed, by the chamber fully. The idea being that feed reliability is enhanced as the cartridge can make the trip into the chamber easier because the angle from the magazine to the chamber is less abrupt. If you place a cartridge in a Glock barrel and look at the bottom of the chamber you will see a crescent shaped area of the brass. This is the unsupported part.
You may hear of Glock "kabooms" associated with this type of set up but I have never seen one personality and the ones I have known to be true have happened with reloaded ammo, usually in .40. The case seems to get weaker with repeated sizing and the .40 operates at a high pressure anyway, so the part of the case that is unsupported combined with case weakness and high pressure may blow out. Much less a problem with fully supported chambers as the case is always fully surrounded in the steel chamber.

I'm sure there are others here who can shed more light but this is my understanding of the subject.
 

Yawn

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Messages
646
TRanger said:
A bit of an involved post. It might help to clarify what your intended purpose for the gun is.
You seem to be on the mark for the most part. Many people prefer striker fired guns for their simplicity of operation. Ruger, FN, and S&W are offering striker fired guns with manual safeties for those who prefer that option.
A 1911 with manual safety engaged and grip safety operable has the entire fire control system locked. The firing pin lock on a series 80 type gun is superfluous. The operation of either does not differ. One must train himself.to sweep that manual safety off on the draw before utilizing it for defensive purposes. A 1911 typically has a relatively light, consistent trigger pull of about five pounds; not three. Three would be too light and not desireable on a defensive piece.
Perhaps this will help get you started. It boils down to what your own personal preference is. Select one and train with it.

I am trying to understand how the internal safety mechanisms work on these weapons, and then if any knowledge that I have listed out is flawed or needing further info. For instance, I have no idea what a firing pin lock is or how the series 80 works, both of which you mentioned. A 1911 has a 5 pound pull? The same as a SR9c? How can that be possible?
 

Yawn

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Messages
646
Mike J said:
You already know about the SR guns. I don't own one but my biggest dislike about them is the magazine disconnect safety.

I own an old XD-40 you are right about it being basically single action (the striker is fully cocked). I haven't shot one of the XDm's though I believe they have a lower bore axis than the old XD guns which I believe is probably a good thing. This is not from experience but I have read many posts saying the old XD-45 would not feed SWC ammunition reliably but the XDM-45 will. Might be something to consider depending on what type of ammo you plan on using. I tend to think the match grade barrel thing from XD is hype but they are accurate guns. They are made in Croatia & were known as the HS 2000 before Springfield sat up the deal to market them here.

The 1911 is the 1911. I really like the ergonomics of this gun. I am a long way from an expert but the series 80 has a firing pin block. The series 70 style doesn't have one. The SR 1911 uses a strong spring with a lightweight firing pin instead of a FPB.

Good Luck with whatever you decide on.

Well, what does match grade even mean? I assume that is better than my SR9, but why? What is a firing pin block and how does that work? Is that what makes a series 80 different than a series 70? Is it superfluous such as TRanger suggested?
 

Yawn

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Messages
646
welder said:
The safety question has been covered well here. I'll add my 2 cents on the fully supported chamber v. the non fully supported chamber.

Glock for example uses what is known as a "not fully supported" chamber. What that means is, at the lower rear end of the chamber and atop the feed ramp, a bit of metal is removed that causes a small portion of the underside rear of the cartridge case to be exposed, thus unsupported, or not fully enclosed, by the chamber fully. The idea being that feed reliability is enhanced as the cartridge can make the trip into the chamber easier because the angle from the magazine to the chamber is less abrupt. If you place a cartridge in a Glock barrel and look at the bottom of the chamber you will see a crescent shaped area of the brass. This is the unsupported part.
You may hear of Glock "kabooms" associated with this type of set up but I have never seen one personality and the ones I have known to be true have happened with reloaded ammo, usually in .40. The case seems to get weaker with repeated sizing and the .40 operates at a high pressure anyway, so the part of the case that is unsupported combined with case weakness and high pressure may blow out. Much less a problem with fully supported chambers as the case is always fully surrounded in the steel chamber.

I'm sure there are others here who can shed more light but this is my understanding of the subject.

Got it! Excellent post! Ok so the advantage of unsupported is better feeding and less risk of failing to do so. Are you saying that the drawback is that this could the cartridge to get stuck in the barrel and explode "Kaboom" with-in the firearm?
 

Rei40c

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976
Yawn said:
welder said:
The safety question has been covered well here. I'll add my 2 cents on the fully supported chamber v. the non fully supported chamber.

Glock for example uses what is known as a "not fully supported" chamber. What that means is, at the lower rear end of the chamber and atop the feed ramp, a bit of metal is removed that causes a small portion of the underside rear of the cartridge case to be exposed, thus unsupported, or not fully enclosed, by the chamber fully. The idea being that feed reliability is enhanced as the cartridge can make the trip into the chamber easier because the angle from the magazine to the chamber is less abrupt. If you place a cartridge in a Glock barrel and look at the bottom of the chamber you will see a crescent shaped area of the brass. This is the unsupported part.
You may hear of Glock "kabooms" associated with this type of set up but I have never seen one personality and the ones I have known to be true have happened with reloaded ammo, usually in .40. The case seems to get weaker with repeated sizing and the .40 operates at a high pressure anyway, so the part of the case that is unsupported combined with case weakness and high pressure may blow out. Much less a problem with fully supported chambers as the case is always fully surrounded in the steel chamber.

I'm sure there are others here who can shed more light but this is my understanding of the subject.

Got it! Excellent post! Ok so the advantage of unsupported is better feeding and less risk of failing to do so. Are you saying that the drawback is that this could the cartridge to get stuck in the barrel and explode "Kaboom" with-in the firearm?

erm.., don't want to interrupt the flow of the conversation but I have to say and stress these Glock or other "Kaboom's" are an exceptionally rare event when used with factory ammo. I just didn't want any impression given that these things happen every day. There's Glocks out there that have passed 50,000 rounds and beyond. You might as well be afraid of being struck by lightning.
 

welder

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Yes, the kabooms are quite rare and as far as I know and have seen, operator or reloader induced. I've never heard of one with factory ammo. BTW, an over charged round will blow out whether the round is fully supported or not.
 

Rei40c

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welder said:
Yes, the kabooms are quite rare and as far as I know and have seen, operator or reloader induced. I've never heard of one with factory ammo. BTW, an over charged round will blow out whether the round is fully supported or not.

Right on, and the advice you are giving is right on. I just had to throw that out there for Yawn, I'd hate for anyone to think of these non supported chambers as death machines waiting to happen. :lol: I know I had some anxiety when new to shooting as it was.

For what it's worth at the end of the day all things being equal I'd prefer a fully supported chamber as well. But I also will not be too worried about my Glock. 8)
 

welder

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Well, what does match grade even mean? I assume that is better than my SR9, but why? What is a firing pin block and how does that work? Is that what makes a series 80 different than a series 70? Is it superfluous such as TRanger suggested?[/quote]

Match grade I believe just means the barrel or other part(s) in question produced to tighter tolerances and are more costly v. mass assembly line parts. Think of it in terms or your vehicle. You can buy a factory assembly line part or one suitable for higher performance. Think racing grade for a rough comparison.The difference being quality, performance and of course cost.

The firing pin block is usually a small cylindrical part contained in the slide under spring pressure that protrudes into the firing pin channel, blocking the pin's travel until it is pushed out of the way by some means of linkage with your pressing the trigger. A series 70 1911 will have no such system and relies on a stronger firing pin spring and sometimes a lighter (titanium) pin to reduce the chance of a discharge should the gun be dropped on it's muzzle.

A series 80 (and most any modern pistol) will have the protruding blocking pin in one form or another in the slide that is pushed up when you press the trigger by a linkage system directly connected to the trigger. The idea being that should the gun be dropped sufficiently hard enough on the muzzle that the inertia of the pin be overcome, it still could not contact the cartridge primer because the pin would be blocked since the trigger was not pressed and the little pin or cylinder would be held in the pin's way by it's spring. There are some other perceived protections that that type safety provides and they concern hammer notch failure or one's thumb slipping off the hammer while cocking etc.

If you have the time you can watch some animations that will help you see these things in operation. There are others but this one will get you started.

http://www.m1911.org/STI1911animation2.htm
 

welder

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Rei40c said:
Right on, and the advice you are giving is right on. I just had to throw that out there for Yawn, I'd hate for anyone to think of these non supported chambers as death machines waiting to happen. :lol: I know I had some anxiety when new to shooting as it was.

For what it's worth at the end of the day all things being equal I'd prefer a fully supported chamber as well. But I also will not be too worried about my Glock. 8)

You and I both. I shoot and carry the Glocks with complete confidence. I reload for all my Rugers but shoot factory or down loaded range loads only in the Glocks. I do have a Lonewolf fully supported barrel for my G17 but have yet to use it. :? The Glocks get some bad press over the chamber thing but for me it's an internet only problem. I hope for others too.
 

TRanger

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Yawn A 1911 has a 5 pound pull? The same as a SR9c? How can that be possible?[/quote said:
The trigger weight is a largely determined by the hammer spring, sear engagement, and how well the parts were put together. A firing pin block can increase the trigger weight, though usually not a great deal. A five pound pull is about average on a 1911. There are plenty out there with heavier pull weights.
Don't get hung up on the term" match grade.". It is mostly just a marketing term. I assure you a standard Glock barrel, for example, is more accurate than 99% of people can shoot it.
 

22/45 Fan

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TRanger said:
The trigger weight is a largely determined by the hammer spring, sear engagement, and how well the parts were put together. A firing pin block can increase the trigger weight, though usually not a great deal. A five pound pull is about average on a 1911. There are plenty out there with heavier pull weights.
A trigger pull that heavy on a 1911 is done intentionally to prevent accidental discharges by nervous shooters and to keep the corporate lawyers happy. A good gunsmith who knows what he is doing can get the pull of a well made 1911 safely down under 2-1/2 pounds and I've seen those at 2 pounds that are drop safe.

These light trigger pulls are typically limited to range and match guns as they are a bit touchy for CC or home defense use. Not that the guns themselves are inherently unsafe but the shooter may be too nervous or excited and fire the gun unintentionally.
 

TRanger

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Agree with 22/45, and I should have clarified that. A 1911 can be safely tuned to have a very light, crisp trigger. Most don't come from the factory that way and generally not a good idea on a defense gun.
 

Yawn

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Rei40c said:
welder said:
Yes, the kabooms are quite rare and as far as I know and have seen, operator or reloader induced. I've never heard of one with factory ammo. BTW, an over charged round will blow out whether the round is fully supported or not.

Right on, and the advice you are giving is right on. I just had to throw that out there for Yawn, I'd hate for anyone to think of these non supported chambers as death machines waiting to happen. :lol: I know I had some anxiety when new to shooting as it was.

For what it's worth at the end of the day all things being equal I'd prefer a fully supported chamber as well. But I also will not be too worried about my Glock. 8)

Why would you prefer a fully supported chamber if there isn't really a kaboom issue?
 

Yawn

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Messages
646
welder said:
Well, what does match grade even mean? I assume that is better than my SR9, but why? What is a firing pin block and how does that work? Is that what makes a series 80 different than a series 70? Is it superfluous such as TRanger suggested?

Match grade I believe just means the barrel or other part(s) in question produced to tighter tolerances and are more costly v. mass assembly line parts. Think of it in terms or your vehicle. You can buy a factory assembly line part or one suitable for higher performance. Think racing grade for a rough comparison.The difference being quality, performance and of course cost.

The firing pin block is usually a small cylindrical part contained in the slide under spring pressure that protrudes into the firing pin channel, blocking the pin's travel until it is pushed out of the way by some means of linkage with your pressing the trigger. A series 70 1911 will have no such system and relies on a stronger firing pin spring and sometimes a lighter (titanium) pin to reduce the chance of a discharge should the gun be dropped on it's muzzle.

A series 80 (and most any modern pistol) will have the protruding blocking pin in one form or another in the slide that is pushed up when you press the trigger by a linkage system directly connected to the trigger. The idea being that should the gun be dropped sufficiently hard enough on the muzzle that the inertia of the pin be overcome, it still could not contact the cartridge primer because the pin would be blocked since the trigger was not pressed and the little pin or cylinder would be held in the pin's way by it's spring. There are some other perceived protections that that type safety provides and they concern hammer notch failure or one's thumb slipping off the hammer while cocking etc.

If you have the time you can watch some animations that will help you see these things in operation. There are others but this one will get you started.

http://www.m1911.org/STI1911animation2.htm

Excellent post and thank you! Especially about match grade... that analogy made a lot of sense.
 

y2k-fxst

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Here is the first factory loaded .45 I have heard of with issues concerning the Glock unsupported chamber. http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/recall-alert-g2r-rip-45acp-recalled/
 

welder

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Interesting comments on their facebook page. It seems the problem is with their ammo, case weakness or over pressure?

The statement says

"this lot of RIP ammo may exhibit excessive chamber pressure in the Glock pistol"

It is either over pressure or it isn't?

Either way the claim to have remedied the product so that it is O.K. in the Glock now??
 
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