TIME FOR A NEW "RUGER" CTG?

I think that Ruger should introduce a new cartridge for PD and call it the .312 Ruger Auto, or as the .32 Ruger.

It should be based on 9MM brass necked down to accept .312 diameter bullets. When loaded to typical 9MM pressure, it should be quite easy to get 1200 fps with the Hornady 100 gr. XTP bullet. That would make it as effective as the 9MM and reduce the recoil by a substantial margin.

I would want it in the LC9s platform. 8)

It's been done before. Actually WAY before, like 1898. Ever hear of the 30 Luger (7.65x21)? It was the first cartridge chambered in the Luger pistol and then necked up to 9 mm in 1902. And, even in the early last century it produced about 1200 fps with a 93 gr bullet.

22/45 Fan said:

It's been done before. Actually WAY before, like 1898. Ever hear of the 30 Luger (7.65x21)? It was the first cartridge chambered in the Luger pistol and then necked up to 9 mm in 1902. And, even in the early last century it produced about 1200 fps with a 93 gr bullet.

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Yes, I understand that, but the .30 Luger case is 2.5MM longer that the 9MM and could cause problems in the smaller framed semi autos that the proposed cartridge would.....but perhaps not.

Actually all Ruger would have to do is chamber a .312 barrel for it and put it on the small framed autos already in the line.

The reason for the .312 diameter is that with the recent advent of the .32 Mg and the 327 Federal, there are a lot of bullets available that are built specifically for pistol velocities.

Also, for the handloader, a set of dies and a bucker of 9MM brass would be all one needs to produce his own ammo. 8)

The only problem with this idea is that when you really need to use a gun the last thing you need to worry about is recoil. That is more of a problem when trying to punch holes in paper.

blume357 said:

The only problem with this idea is that when you really need to use a gun the last thing you need to worry about is recoil. That is more of a problem when trying to punch holes in paper.

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I agree to that, but recoil does not affect me that much in the first place. I shoot the 480 Ruger enough that most other handguns seem mild by comparison.

But there are a lot of people who are badly affected by recoil for a variety of reasons, such as weakness in the hands and arthritis for example. These people would be well served by a gun that shoots a lighter bullet, yet is still powerful enough to be effective for PD.

Even a 90 gr. .312 bullet has better SD than a 115 gr, .355 bullet, so penetration should be no problem. With a 100 grainer, in lets say the XTP configuration, expansion and penetration would make for a very effective cartridge with recoil that would be more manageable than the typical 9MM.

And all Ruger would need to do is put this barrel on the LC9s and there it is... 8)

ADDED: And, of course, get Hornady to make the ammo. I am sure that reloading dies would soon follow.

5of7 said:

ADDED: And, of course, get Hornady to make the ammo. I am sure that reloading dies would soon follow.

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If you can get a suitably chambered barrel, the forming and loading dies can be custom made by any number of manufacturers. RCBS, for one, will make any die you can design and they aren't the only ones.

5of7 said:

22/45 Fan said:

It's been done before. Actually WAY before, like 1898. Ever hear of the 30 Luger (7.65x21)? It was the first cartridge chambered in the Luger pistol and then necked up to 9 mm in 1902. And, even in the early last century it produced about 1200 fps with a 93 gr bullet.

Click to expand...

Yes, I understand that, but the .30 Luger case is 2.5MM longer that the 9MM and could cause problems in the smaller framed semi autos that the proposed cartridge would.....but perhaps not.

Actually all Ruger would have to do is chamber a .312 barrel for it and put it on the small framed autos already in the line.

The reason for the .312 diameter is that with the recent advent of the .32 Mg and the 327 Federal, there are a lot of bullets available that are built specifically for pistol velocities.

Also, for the handloader, a set of dies and a bucker of 9MM brass would be all one needs to produce his own ammo. 8)

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The case length on the 30 Luger is longer than the 9mm Luger, but when you consider overall length (with loaded bullet), the 30 Luger is just 0.16mm longer.

Are you looking for a lower pressure 32 that will fit in 380 handguns? North American Arms make the 32 NAA which is a necked down 380. It will shoot a 60gr bullet at speeds in excess of 1,200FPS, with nearly 200ft/lbs of energy.


Charlie

Leucoandro said:

The case length on the 30 Luger is longer than the 9mm Luger, but when you consider overall length (with loaded bullet), the 30 Luger is just 0.16mm longer.

Are you looking for a lower pressure 32 that will fit in 380 handguns? North American Arms make the 32 NAA which is a necked down 380. It will shoot a 60gr bullet at speeds in excess of 1,200FPS, with nearly 200ft/lbs of energy.
Charlie

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I noted in my proposal that the OAL was only slightly longer..(although I didn't say so here), that is why I said that it might cause problems.....it also might not, and if not, then just going to the .30 Luger would be preferred...although I would like to see the chamber re-designed for .312" bullets.

And no, I would like to see this in guns that are regularly chambered for the 9MM so that the breech face is the proper size. The NAA cartridge is based on the .380 brass which night be a little short on case capacity to achieve the ballistics that one would want for a truly viable PD ctg.

About the only other objection I can think of is the repetitive failure of .32 pistol and revolver rounds in the marketplace. The 30 Mauser and 30 Luger were never big items in the US and fell out of significant use in Europe long ago. The various attempts to sell hot .32 revolver rounds like the .32 H&R "Magnum" and the more powerful .327 Federal never had any significant sales and have been reduced to cult status already. They may be useful rounds but they don't sell.

It would be an higher pressure round than the 9mm. Because using more powder to send a lighter bullet through a smaller hole=increased pressure=increased recoil IMO.
gramps

When the subject of "New Cartridges" arises it always intrigues me, like the endless debate of .45 vs 9mm, which usually falls totally apart with a velocity and energy comparison.

Now I wasn't around back in 1902 when Mr. Luger created his 9x19mm cartridge or in 1906 when the US Military developed the .30-06.

Over the years many claim to have improved on them, however for me its almost impossible to improve on perfection. But of course, I am old enough to have a biased opinion.

Osage

Y'all go ahead and chase this rabbit...I am content with what is available now...and deliver me from a bottle-necked handgun round.

gramps said:

It would be an higher pressure round than the 9mm. Because using more powder to send a lighter bullet through a smaller hole=increased pressure=increased recoil IMO.
gramps

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No, the pressure will stay the same in the interest of safety. The current 9 mm SAAMI pressure limit is about as high as it gets for mainstream pistol rounds. A smaller diameter bullet in a given size case calls for a slower burning powder to maintain the same pressure levels and gain velocity.

Let's see here. Ruger has introduced the .204, .300, .338, .375, and .480 Ruger cartridges. While they may all very well be fine shooters they sure haven't set any sales records. I can't see Ruger pouring any more money into new calibers, especially since the highly touted .327 crashed and burned so spectacularly. They can't keep up with demand for their established products as it is. Personally I'm satisfied with all the cartridges introduced within 20 years of WWI. .30 WCF, .32 Auto, .38 Special, 9mm Luger, .257 Roberts; they all serve me very well.

FergusonTO35 said:

Let's see here. Ruger has introduced the .204, .300, .338, .375, and .480 Ruger cartridges. While they may all very well be fine shooters they sure haven't set any sales records. I can't see Ruger pouring any more money into new calibers, especially since the highly touted .327 crashed and burned so spectacularly. They can't keep up with demand for their established products as it is. Personally I'm satisfied with all the cartridges introduced within 20 years of WWI. .30 WCF, .32 Auto, .38 Special, 9mm Luger, .257 Roberts; they all serve me very well.

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I am in agreement with the underlined portion of your post. I don't think that most people would argue that there hasn't been any crying need for most cartridges introduced outside of the period that you mentioned.....with a few exceptions, of course. In general, cartridges are introduced to sell guns and to support enthusiasm in the shooting sports.

In my view, the .327 was/is an example of a solution looking for a problem....we already had the .30 Carbine for those of us who wanted to test out a new pair of dark colored glasses.... :lol:

My proposal would result in a cartridge that is as viable as the 9MM while producing significantly less recoil. And it is a dead simple thing for Ruger to produce, requiring only a different barrel and an agreement with an ammunition manufacturer to produce ammo.

I think that a 90 grain .312 Hornady bullet loaded to 1200 fps would penetrate as well as the typical 115 grain bullet in the 9MM with less recoil.....and I truly think there is a market for a .32 caliber PD cartridge IF it is also a viable option for PD.

Now...the above is just what I think and probably doesn't amount to much in the great scheme of things in the Universe. 8)