hot 9MM loads

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5of7

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Recently I got into a discussion with one of our contributors about what really constitutes a hot load for the 9MM. I found in my library of handloading manuals a copy of the Speer manual #8, and thought some of you might find it interesting. Note that this data is for the 90 gr bullet and the 125 gr. bullet, and not the 115 gr.bullet.



 

427mach1

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5of7,

When was that edition published? If it has been several years, I wonder if the powder formulations have changed since then?
 

Cheesewhiz

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427mach1 said:
5of7,

When was that edition published? If it has been several years, I wonder if the powder formulations have changed since then?

Sorry, had to look. This is priceless.

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-70008.html
 

5of7

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427mach1 said:
5of7,

When was that edition published? If it has been several years, I wonder if the powder formulations have changed since then?

In the late 60s/early 70s.

I never heard of Speer going out of business because of blown up guns though....as some here might have thought.. :lol:
 

5of7

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Cheesewhiz said:
427mach1 said:
5of7,

When was that edition published? If it has been several years, I wonder if the powder formulations have changed since then?

Sorry, had to look. This is priceless.

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-70008.html

From the link......"In the Speer No. 10 Reloading Manual, page 107, it is stated...."The data in the Number 8 and earlier manuals was based on primer appearance, ease of case extraction, and case head expansion. These methods are still valid, and are the only ways the reloader can estimate the safety of his loads without some rather complicated laboratory equipment "

Precisely.....although one necessarily must have first have mastered the art of deductive reasoning..... 8)
 

LaneP

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Wow, an H110 recipe for 9mm. That would be the very LAST powder I'd expect a component vendor to develop a load for in that caliber.

LOL. Thanks for posting.
 

5of7

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Highspeedlane said:
Wow, an H110 recipe for 9mm. That would be the very LAST powder I'd expect a component vendor to develop a load for in that caliber.

LOL. Thanks for posting.

Yeah, me too. I suppose the fact that it is a rather dense powder allows for enough of it in the 9MM case to be useful with a heavier bullet.

Just shows to go ya......never say never. 8)
 

Cheesewhiz

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FergusonTO35 said:
H110 might have been more suitable for 9mm back then.

It's actually a case of the American ammo makers and later the reloaders learning the 9mm. It was a European cartridge until after WWII and it only slowly gained popularity in this country as more and more police departments adopted it as a duty weapon caliber, over the .38 Special. That was well into the seventies, around 75 and later. Before that the 9mm guns in this country were war souvenirs and a very few new European made pistols. These guys really knew nothing at first and there was no money in it as there were very few guns available in the US that were chambered for this cartridge. Most of this old info on 9mm reloads are dismissed as being completely out of date. Heck, all of the powders in the posted load data are either no longer made, not even considered for use in a 9mm round anymore or have been reformulated or recalculated over this extended time period.
 

UnderDawgAl

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FergusonTO35 said:
Wow, those are pretty stout. Ooh, I see a load for Green Dot!

My all-time favorite 9mm load under any cast or plated bullet from 115 to 124 grains is 4.3 grains of Green Dot. It's right at 1000 fps, burns cleaner than anything else I've reloaded for the caliber, fills the case without being compressed, meters well, and is easier to find than the popular powders. Once I shot a few test loads with it, I promptly bought an 8-lb jug.

It shoots very well in my LC9.
 

22/45 Fan

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I have the Speer #9 manual (copyright 1974, the one right after the OP's) and it doesn't list H110 (aka WW 296, even back then) loads for any weight 9 mm bullet, jacketed or lead. Of the powders both #8 and #9 mention, Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, Blue Dot (#9 only), Unique, H110, and 700X are the ones I know that are still available.

WW230 was renamed WW231 sometime later. I don't know if it's exactly the same powder but the published loads in #8 for the 125 gr soft point seem hot while the loads in #9 are the same as still published current for WW 231.

One reason that modern manuals appear to have reduced the maximum powder charges for most bullet/powder combinations is that the powder and bullet makers began to get real pressure testing equipment about the early-to-mid-70's and developed true pressure data, not estimates based on primer appearance, etc. At first they used lead or copper crushers and, more recently, piezo electric pressure transducers. Both gave objective readings, not guesses.
 

Cheesewhiz

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22/45 Fan said:
I have the Speer #9 manual (copyright 1974, the one right after the OP's) and it doesn't list H110 (aka WW 296, even back then) loads for any weight 9 mm bullet, jacketed or lead. Of the powders both #8 and #9 mention, Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, Blue Dot (#9 only), Unique, H110, and 700X are the ones I know that are still available.

WW230 was renamed WW231 sometime later. I don't know if it's exactly the same powder but the published loads in #8 for the 125 gr soft point seem hot while the loads in #9 are the same as still published current for WW 231.

One reason that modern manuals appear to have reduced the maximum powder charges for most bullet/powder combinations is that the powder and bullet makers began to get real pressure testing equipment about the early-to-mid-70's and developed true pressure data, not estimates based on primer appearance, etc. At first they used lead or copper crushers and, more recently, piezo electric pressure transducers. Both gave objective readings, not guesses.

The AL# powders listed are NOT AA# powders, they are Alcan powders. That company went out of business 40 years ago. They were aquired by Fiocchi/S&W at that time. The plant in Alton, Illinois was taken over by Winchester and was recently closed. Alcan repackaged Swedish powders made by Bofors and also assembled ammo, mostly shotgun loads.

W230P is not the same as W231 and W231 is not the same as it use to be, it is now the same formula as HP-38, the reload data has been changed even for W231 since this move.

HS-7 is no longer made, HS-6 has been reformulated.

Unique has been reformulated since that manual and the data is not the same.

I'm not sure about the Dot's but I know the data is not the same in any modern manuals.

H110 is not listed as a proper powder as you noted in any modern manual.

Top Mark was the precurser to W296 and that is now the same as H110.

Things change, that's why they make new manuals.
 
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That is interesting. Back in the 80's I bought a S&W 439, and had a buddy reload a bunch of 9mm for me. I told him I wanted 1200 fps. I didn't have a chrono, but the 115 gr JHP worked great, without any signs of case bulging or flat primers. I have no idea what powder he used nor the velocity. HMM I have become smarter the older I have become. You either win or you learn.
gramps
 

loaded round

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FYI, WW230 was not the same formulation as WW231. When it first became available Winchester cautioned in their loading brochure not to use 230 data in developing loads with the new 231 data. There also was a 230P powder but not sure if it was the same as 230.


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22/45 Fan said:
I have the Speer #9 manual (copyright 1974, the one right after the OP's) and it doesn't list H110 (aka WW 296, even back then) loads for any weight 9 mm bullet, jacketed or lead. Of the powders both #8 and #9 mention, Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, Blue Dot (#9 only), Unique, H110, and 700X are the ones I know that are still available.

WW230 was renamed WW231 sometime later. I don't know if it's exactly the same powder but the published loads in #8 for the 125 gr soft point seem hot while the loads in #9 are the same as still published current for WW 231.

One reason that modern manuals appear to have reduced the maximum powder charges for most bullet/powder combinations is that the powder and bullet makers began to get real pressure testing equipment about the early-to-mid-70's and developed true pressure data, not estimates based on primer appearance, etc. At first they used lead or copper crushers and, more recently, piezo electric pressure transducers. Both gave objective readings, not guesses.
 

loaded round

Hunter
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Gramps: Your post brought back some old memories. Back in 64-65, I put some time in beautiful, sunny SE Asia and at the time was authorized a sidearm but none were available (I did have a M2 carbine). I bought a S&W Model 39 from a copter pilot being rotated home for 50.00. This DA 9mm was the first I had ever seen and the only place I could get extra ammo for it was from the Canadians, and it was good stuff. Just a memory from another ''old head''. Loaded Round


gramps said:
That is interesting. Back in the 80's I bought a S&W 439, and had a buddy reload a bunch of 9mm for me. I told him I wanted 1200 fps. I didn't have a chrono, but the 115 gr JHP worked great, without any signs of case bulging or flat primers. I have no idea what powder he used nor the velocity. HMM I have become smarter the older I have become. You either win or you learn.
gramps
 

5of7

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New manuals are written to stimulate interest in new powders.....which are formulated to increase revenue more than to fulfill a real need. 8)
 
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