Self Defense Bullet Type Discussion

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45cal. FMJ vs +P JHP for Self Defense?

  • FMJ 230gr. @830 FPS

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Some other bullet that may be FMJ or JHP but with other special attributes such as greater muzzle ve

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • +P JHP 230gr. @950 FPS

    Votes: 9 47.4%

  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
10,561
Location
Greenville, SC: USA
Find and take a good Defensive Hand Gun Class... there is no comparison to 'self training' and having a coach.

Only other comment I can make is Bruce Lee did not die from a gun shot... that was his son Brandon Lee.... and this was the fault of the 'Gun Wanglers' on the movie set... squib load not discovered and then the gun was loaded with blanks....
 

s4s4u

Hunter
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Messages
2,105
Location
MN, USA
squib load not discovered and then the gun was loaded with blanks....

Actually is wasn't a "squib" but rather a prop cartridge with a plastic bullet that they load in a revolver so that it looks loaded from the front of the gun. When they unloaded the dummies to load blanks one of those plastic bullets dislodged from the case and stuck in one of the chambers, and was propelled by a blank in the next scene. Just a case of someone not paying attention.
 

FergusonTO35

Hunter
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,420
Location
Boonesborough, KY
If it was me, I would load up some lead slugs with a big flat point at around 800 fps. Cheap, easy to shoot, accurate, and will put the smack down quite nicely. If going with factory ammo I would just stick with quality FMJ.
 

Umbra_the_Wolf

Bearcat
Joined
Apr 15, 2017
Messages
37
Unfortunately I'm in a tiny house and if I defend myself instantly when a man breaks in, that gives me a maximum 10' to put him down. Chances are I'll have less than that since people come while sleeping. An FMJ just won't do the trick and chances are good still it'll pass through and hit my house lol

I decided on Winchester +P Ranger T-Series hollow points 45 AUTO 230gr. @990 FPS with a 1" full expansion at a perfect 15" penetration but of course that's ballistics gel, I can only hope it really mimics real life. Regardless, enough bullets should make a guy stop cold if I aim for the heart and at that range I should be dead on. Out of that 10' I mean my arm extends 2' anyway so that's like 8' lol I chose it because it penetrated ballistics gel just right with the largest hollow point flattening of any bullet, totaling 1" in size. That should should stop anyone. Most people on here seem to think so long as the bullet doesn't overpenetrate it'll do serious damage regardless, and hollow points are just the way I'm makign sure that doesn't happen. My wife has a 9mm as well under her pillow with 147 gr. hollow points so reaction time I think is more crucial than some teeny tiny differences in caliber or bullet tech. That's why I posted this, I wanted to know what I know now :D everyone has been extremely helpful
 

Umbra_the_Wolf

Bearcat
Joined
Apr 15, 2017
Messages
37
FergusonTO35 said:
If it was me, I would load up some lead slugs with a big flat point at around 800 fps. Cheap, easy to shoot, accurate, and will put the smack down quite nicely. If going with factory ammo I would just stick with quality FMJ.

Lead slugs? Sounds cool. Didn't catch that on my initial read. Are they like shotgun slugs or something? Because that'd be really crazy cool if so. At 10' velocity dropoff won't matter. I'd have gotten a shotgun except there's sooooooooo little room that a 2' barrel just is not going to work. There's no where to put it either.

Maybe paste a URL to what you're talking about so I can read up on it and decide.
 

Yawn

Blackhawk
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
646
I think you made the right choice for a centerfire pistoal, other than maybe a 10mm or a 357sig. And i think you made the correct choice in bullet. Yes, the hollow points need to feed well... but if they dont, the gun is crap. This is 2017, and a newly minted firesrm should handle a steady diet ofnsuch ammo. I have an sr45. Hollow points feed just fine! I used the winchester pdx rounds. Size counts when trying to stop a threat, and anyone who says otherwise robs ly didnt do well in their highschool physics and geometry classes. I though, have better accuracy without the extra punch in the round that a plus p gives. Hopefully we will move to a larger house and then i want an AR with a piston recoil in the stock.... but that round would pass throigh 9 different residences in our condos after passing through a bad guy who broke into my house.

I will say this though... it sounds like your next self defense investment might need to be a new neighborhood
 

Umbra_the_Wolf

Bearcat
Joined
Apr 15, 2017
Messages
37
Yawn said:
I think you made the right choice for a centerfire pistoal, other than maybe a 10mm or a 357sig. And i think you made the correct choice in bullet. Yes, the hollow points need to feed well... but if they dont, the gun is crap. This is 2017, and a newly minted firesrm should handle a steady diet ofnsuch ammo. I have an sr45. Hollow points feed just fine! I used the winchester pdx rounds. Size counts when trying to stop a threat, and anyone who says otherwise robs ly didnt do well in their highschool physics and geometry classes. I though, have better accuracy without the extra punch in the round that a plus p gives. Hopefully we will move to a larger house and then i want an AR with a piston recoil in the stock.... but that round would pass throigh 9 different residences in our condos after passing through a bad guy who broke into my house.

I will say this though... it sounds like your next self defense investment might need to be a new neighborhood

hahah yeah, I'm able to move my tiny house where ever I want to, so long as I can find parking. This is the first time I've parked IN an actual city but only did because the neighborhood seemed so nice. My tiny house is not allowed in RV parks for various reasons I don't care to get into but I hate them anyway. The neighborhood I'm in is actually quiet and nice, however it's when stragglers pass through that it can get rough and tumble even though it's supposed to be a closed neighborhood. As soon as I find a good spot I'm leaving. For a closed neighborhood though there sure are a lot of weirdos walking through at night.

I set up a security light system 4 weeks ago so no one can approach anymore without a blinding white light. And I parked my wife's car cock-eyed in front of the nose of the house so there's a twisty-turny way to get up to the front door and re-positioned my front door toward a massive 14' tall by 35' long row of Oleanders and allowed the Oleanders to absolutely overrun the front door. It's like a little Oleander jungle at the doorway lol. No one is going to casually approach my door. The noise they'd make and the light would be too much. The light is so blinding in that little path to the door I'm certain they'd have to be intent on murder to continue onward to the door itself after rustling all those bushes. Finally I installed a latch since I don't have a deadbolt so if anyone tries to pick the handle lock this time they'll still have to either snip the latch or attempt to yank the door open like a lunatic. And then there are two people with guns the moment they enter lol.

It'd be a very sad night for the average burglar. I still intend to install a deadbolt but my door around its rim is stainless steel so my Rigid is grossly unsuited to get through it, but I'll find a way.
 

GunnyGene

Hawkeye
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
9,412
Location
Monroe County, MS
Umbra_the_Wolf said:
hahah yeah, I'm able to move my tiny house where ever I want to, so long as I can find parking. This is the first time I've parked IN an actual city but only did because the neighborhood seemed so nice. My tiny house is not allowed in RV parks for various reasons I don't care to get into but I hate them anyway. The neighborhood I'm in is actually quiet and nice, however it's when stragglers pass through that it can get rough and tumble even though it's supposed to be a closed neighborhood. As soon as I find a good spot I'm leaving. For a closed neighborhood though there sure are a lot of weirdos walking through at night.

I set up a security light system 4 weeks ago so no one can approach anymore without a blinding white light. And I parked my wife's car cock-eyed in front of the nose of the house so there's a twisty-turny way to get up to the front door and re-positioned my front door toward a massive 14' tall by 35' long row of Oleanders and allowed the Oleanders to absolutely overrun the front door. It's like a little Oleander jungle at the doorway lol. No one is going to casually approach my door. The noise they'd make and the light would be too much. The light is so blinding in that little path to the door I'm certain they'd have to be intent on murder to continue onward to the door itself after rustling all those bushes. Finally I installed a latch since I don't have a deadbolt so if anyone tries to pick the handle lock this time they'll still have to either snip the latch or attempt to yank the door open like a lunatic. And then there are two people with guns the moment they enter lol.

It'd be a very sad night for the average burglar. I still intend to install a deadbolt but my door around its rim is stainless steel so my Rigid is grossly unsuited to get through it, but I'll find a way.

Don't want to derail this thread, but I've seen these "Tiny" houses on TV a couple times. Never saw one up close tho. I couldn't live in one, but I know they have a following. Anyway, I think you're the first I've ever heard of that mentioned home security of any kind, let alone firearms. I suspect you might have some unique insight into the challenges presented with these that we could all learn from so I'm hoping you might start another thread about specific security & safety issues for these. :)
 

Umbra_the_Wolf

Bearcat
Joined
Apr 15, 2017
Messages
37
GunnyGene said:
Umbra_the_Wolf said:
hahah yeah, I'm able to move my tiny house where ever I want to, so long as I can find parking. This is the first time I've parked IN an actual city but only did because the neighborhood seemed so nice. My tiny house is not allowed in RV parks for various reasons I don't care to get into but I hate them anyway. The neighborhood I'm in is actually quiet and nice, however it's when stragglers pass through that it can get rough and tumble even though it's supposed to be a closed neighborhood. As soon as I find a good spot I'm leaving. For a closed neighborhood though there sure are a lot of weirdos walking through at night.

I set up a security light system 4 weeks ago so no one can approach anymore without a blinding white light. And I parked my wife's car cock-eyed in front of the nose of the house so there's a twisty-turny way to get up to the front door and re-positioned my front door toward a massive 14' tall by 35' long row of Oleanders and allowed the Oleanders to absolutely overrun the front door. It's like a little Oleander jungle at the doorway lol. No one is going to casually approach my door. The noise they'd make and the light would be too much. The light is so blinding in that little path to the door I'm certain they'd have to be intent on murder to continue onward to the door itself after rustling all those bushes. Finally I installed a latch since I don't have a deadbolt so if anyone tries to pick the handle lock this time they'll still have to either snip the latch or attempt to yank the door open like a lunatic. And then there are two people with guns the moment they enter lol.

It'd be a very sad night for the average burglar. I still intend to install a deadbolt but my door around its rim is stainless steel so my Rigid is grossly unsuited to get through it, but I'll find a way.

Don't want to derail this thread, but I've seen these "Tiny" houses on TV a couple times. Never saw one up close tho. I couldn't live in one, but I know they have a following. Anyway, I think you're the first I've ever heard of that mentioned home security of any kind, let alone firearms. I suspect you might have some unique insight into the challenges presented with these that we could all learn from so I'm hoping you might start another thread about specific security & safety issues for these. :)

That's actually an excellent idea. A tiny house has been quite the learning experience. I'd best take a video for ya, they are the most liberating way to live without being an RVer or homeless
GunnyGene said:
Umbra_the_Wolf said:
hahah yeah, I'm able to move my tiny house where ever I want to, so long as I can find parking. This is the first time I've parked IN an actual city but only did because the neighborhood seemed so nice. My tiny house is not allowed in RV parks for various reasons I don't care to get into but I hate them anyway. The neighborhood I'm in is actually quiet and nice, however it's when stragglers pass through that it can get rough and tumble even though it's supposed to be a closed neighborhood. As soon as I find a good spot I'm leaving. For a closed neighborhood though there sure are a lot of weirdos walking through at night.

I set up a security light system 4 weeks ago so no one can approach anymore without a blinding white light. And I parked my wife's car cock-eyed in front of the nose of the house so there's a twisty-turny way to get up to the front door and re-positioned my front door toward a massive 14' tall by 35' long row of Oleanders and allowed the Oleanders to absolutely overrun the front door. It's like a little Oleander jungle at the doorway lol. No one is going to casually approach my door. The noise they'd make and the light would be too much. The light is so blinding in that little path to the door I'm certain they'd have to be intent on murder to continue onward to the door itself after rustling all those bushes. Finally I installed a latch since I don't have a deadbolt so if anyone tries to pick the handle lock this time they'll still have to either snip the latch or attempt to yank the door open like a lunatic. And then there are two people with guns the moment they enter lol.

It'd be a very sad night for the average burglar. I still intend to install a deadbolt but my door around its rim is stainless steel so my Rigid is grossly unsuited to get through it, but I'll find a way.

Don't want to derail this thread, but I've seen these "Tiny" houses on TV a couple times. Never saw one up close tho. I couldn't live in one, but I know they have a following. Anyway, I think you're the first I've ever heard of that mentioned home security of any kind, let alone firearms. I suspect you might have some unique insight into the challenges presented with these that we could all learn from so I'm hoping you might start another thread about specific security & safety issues for these. :)
 

SR1911SHOOTER

Blackhawk
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
763
Location
Copperas Cove, Texas
Umbra_the_Wolf said:
I'm looking for fact-based and experience-based opinions. After creating one topic where people told me that in my Tiny House I ought to learn to hip-fire my Ruger American 45 to stop a burgler 10' or less away from me (versus practicing at targets 20-25 yards away), I wanted to finally ask my last self-defense question involving the amazing 45 caliber bullet and VERY close self-defense kind of situation. As I had a burglary attempt by a man who ran away when I shouted before he finished picking my lock alerting him that I was indeed home, it came to mind that if he wanted to kill the hell out of me he could have if he wanted to. That's what prompted me to buy a gun. I know HapKiDo however if even Bruce Lee was killed by a gun (and even on accident) then I'd still rather than a gun in such a situation.

This all in mind regarding my very tiny adorable house that attracts far too much attention than I prefer, I just wanted to make sure that my bullet choice for very close self-defense was both reliable and effective with as little trade-off as possible.

Here are the facts I've seen so far
1) Jacketed Hollow Points "should" expand after initial penetration, but don't always. Still true?
2) JHP's for 45 Autos like my Ruger American sometime don't feed well. I've already experienced this multiple times but it may be my gun is brand new. However, 200 FMJ's at the range fired flawlessly
3) JHP's are said to sometimes have less than reliable penetration and expansion performance on targets wearing thicker clothing like winter jackets. Some guys laughed at this flat-out saying they had killed deer with their 45 handgun loaded with JHP's, making it through the tough hide without an issue, and others still point out that stats still sometimes show less than reliable performance. I've heard very convincing arguments from both sides, and I mean VERY convincing
4) Facts seem to conflict regarding a (230gr.) 45 JHP @830FPS in particular having the needed muzzle velocity to reliably and deeply penetrate THEN expand. Some have even show premature expansion or no expansion at all (effectively not even penetrating either sometimes). I've read studies that showed a JHP's 230gr. @930 or more FPS offer much better penetration and expansion.

#4 above is why I've decided to make this about +P JHP vs plain old FMJ, both at 230gr.

FMJ's
1) Many say that a FMJ has been a reliable killer-bullet for over 96 years and that JHP's are even necessary. This is an obvious fact!
2) FMJ's are far more likely to feed better/more reliably than hollow points
3) BUT overpenetration is a big issue, it seems. Some say the wound channel is more important than a JHP's "less channel with a larger diameter" wound
4) And last but not least, stopping power. I've seen it so many times that people say a FMJ kills a man but doesn't stop a man, while a JHP can stop him dead in his tracks. They often say you don't want to be shot or stabbed in the 10-15 seconds it takes for a man to bleed out because you chose an FMJ over a JHP. I find this to be more B.S. because who would stop shooting after 1 or 2 bullets? I would opt to keep shooting til he's face down so I'm not sure this makes much sense unless your handgun only has a 3 bullet capacity lol

I'd honestly like to know what is best and if these stats and opinions are tried and true.

Remember that I'm comparing +P JHP's 230gr. @950 FPS vs 230gr. FMJ @835 FPS. The topic is about reliability and proper bullet expansion of hollow points if they have a great enough velocity to reliably expand in the attacker. So what do you guys think?

Thanks guys, and don't forget the polls :D


Wolf,
I have several different carry weapons and a couple of "Home Defense" weapons. Both semi auto and wheel.
All my self defense ammo is Ruger ARX Polycase. It is frangible, Plus P+ and best yet, it feeds reliably in all of my
pistols. Would not carry any other type.
Blackie


https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/10/23/tested-the-polycase-arx-bullet/
 

Mike J

Hunter
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
4,229
Location
GA
I believe you chose well with JHP. As long as your pistol feeds them reliably you should be fine. Although the only .45 acp I own is a SR 1911 I haven't had any problem with any pistol feeding & ejecting .45 acp reliably. I do run some of whatever I am going to use for self defense to make sure it works though.
 

Umbra_the_Wolf

Bearcat
Joined
Apr 15, 2017
Messages
37
SR1911SHOOTER said:
Umbra_the_Wolf said:
I'm looking for fact-based and experience-based opinions. After creating one topic where people told me that in my Tiny House I ought to learn to hip-fire my Ruger American 45 to stop a burgler 10' or less away from me (versus practicing at targets 20-25 yards away), I wanted to finally ask my last self-defense question involving the amazing 45 caliber bullet and VERY close self-defense kind of situation. As I had a burglary attempt by a man who ran away when I shouted before he finished picking my lock alerting him that I was indeed home, it came to mind that if he wanted to kill the hell out of me he could have if he wanted to. That's what prompted me to buy a gun. I know HapKiDo however if even Bruce Lee was killed by a gun (and even on accident) then I'd still rather than a gun in such a situation.

This all in mind regarding my very tiny adorable house that attracts far too much attention than I prefer, I just wanted to make sure that my bullet choice for very close self-defense was both reliable and effective with as little trade-off as possible.

Here are the facts I've seen so far
1) Jacketed Hollow Points "should" expand after initial penetration, but don't always. Still true?
2) JHP's for 45 Autos like my Ruger American sometime don't feed well. I've already experienced this multiple times but it may be my gun is brand new. However, 200 FMJ's at the range fired flawlessly
3) JHP's are said to sometimes have less than reliable penetration and expansion performance on targets wearing thicker clothing like winter jackets. Some guys laughed at this flat-out saying they had killed deer with their 45 handgun loaded with JHP's, making it through the tough hide without an issue, and others still point out that stats still sometimes show less than reliable performance. I've heard very convincing arguments from both sides, and I mean VERY convincing
4) Facts seem to conflict regarding a (230gr.) 45 JHP @830FPS in particular having the needed muzzle velocity to reliably and deeply penetrate THEN expand. Some have even show premature expansion or no expansion at all (effectively not even penetrating either sometimes). I've read studies that showed a JHP's 230gr. @930 or more FPS offer much better penetration and expansion.

#4 above is why I've decided to make this about +P JHP vs plain old FMJ, both at 230gr.

FMJ's
1) Many say that a FMJ has been a reliable killer-bullet for over 96 years and that JHP's are even necessary. This is an obvious fact!
2) FMJ's are far more likely to feed better/more reliably than hollow points
3) BUT overpenetration is a big issue, it seems. Some say the wound channel is more important than a JHP's "less channel with a larger diameter" wound
4) And last but not least, stopping power. I've seen it so many times that people say a FMJ kills a man but doesn't stop a man, while a JHP can stop him dead in his tracks. They often say you don't want to be shot or stabbed in the 10-15 seconds it takes for a man to bleed out because you chose an FMJ over a JHP. I find this to be more B.S. because who would stop shooting after 1 or 2 bullets? I would opt to keep shooting til he's face down so I'm not sure this makes much sense unless your handgun only has a 3 bullet capacity lol

I'd honestly like to know what is best and if these stats and opinions are tried and true.

Remember that I'm comparing +P JHP's 230gr. @950 FPS vs 230gr. FMJ @835 FPS. The topic is about reliability and proper bullet expansion of hollow points if they have a great enough velocity to reliably expand in the attacker. So what do you guys think?

Thanks guys, and don't forget the polls :D


Wolf,
I have several different carry weapons and a couple of "Home Defense" weapons. Both semi auto and wheel.
All my self defense ammo is Ruger ARX Polycase. It is frangible, Plus P+ and best yet, it feeds reliably in all of my
pistols. Would not carry any other type.
Blackie


https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/10/23/tested-the-polycase-arx-bullet/


So I'm undecided. I like the idea of the bullet being frangible and creating a 4" wound. I watched videos of its performance on ballistics gel and thought it was both awesome and thought that it may need more time to be tested for more combat situations. It's only 2 years old and Ruger's first attempt was mostly a failure. So I've seen that some of the ARX bullets would break apart too soon making them really bad in a close combat defensive situation, most of the time they broke up well though but "most of the time" isn't all of the time like you have with normal bullets and hollow points. Other times the bullet overpenetrated without breaking fully in the gel making it no different than an FMJ. I'm not sure how reliable these would be. Is there more proven with this bullet type? I LOVE that it's made by Ruger. That's the big seller for me.

The Winchester Ranger T-Series JHP has a 1" expansion and steady 15" penetration. I'm just not sure what I should pick. Something that does what I expect it to but may be inferior or something that would shred a man but may not work every single bullet?
 

Umbra_the_Wolf

Bearcat
Joined
Apr 15, 2017
Messages
37
I have watched more and more on the Ruger frangible ammo and it just does not offer consistent ballistics at all. I'll pass on that stuff.
 

FergusonTO35

Hunter
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,420
Location
Boonesborough, KY
Lead slugs? Sounds cool. Didn't catch that on my initial read. Are they like shotgun slugs or something? Because that'd be really crazy cool if so. At 10' velocity dropoff won't matter. I'd have gotten a shotgun except there's sooooooooo little room that a 2' barrel just is not going to work. There's no where to put it either.

Maybe paste a URL to what you're talking about so I can read up on it and decide.

I'm just talking about plain lead bullets in whatever flavor you like, be it round nose, flat point, hollow point, or whatever. The beauty of a .45 caliber bullet is that it doesn't need expansion or much velocity to do a good job. All the information you could ever want about them can be found at gunloads.castboolits.com. I'm a member there under the same name.
 

mohavesam

Hawkeye
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
Messages
5,847
Location
Rugerville, AZ
Ask the man who has shot a man. Ask a cop or Detective who has BTDT.
Free advice:
1. Buy sub-sonic 45-anything that has been computer-designed to work at subsonic velocities & short range.
2. Invest in a good pre-paid legal defense contract.

Free advice but I wish someone had convinced me in my youth.
 

FergusonTO35

Hunter
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,420
Location
Boonesborough, KY
mohavesam said:
Ask the man who has shot a man. Ask a cop or Detective who has BTDT.

I did once chat with an old copper whose career spanned from the 1960's to well into the 90's, and he said that the old .38 Special +P 158 grain lead hollowpoint was the most effective handgun round he had ever seen. He said he had also sat in on the autopsies of a few perps whose career was cut short with that round and the effect was very convincing. "One per customer is all you need!" he quipped.
 

perchjerker

Bearcat
Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
2
Rounds won't matter if this Congressman gets his way. He wants gun owners to run and avoid home invaders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAA0KUm-Jkc
 
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