My 'New', New Vaquero broke

Hello...a recently purchased NV .357 has spit out a piece of metal (I was dry firing) and I assume its part of the pawl. The hammer will not cock back with the cylinder in the gun. It will cock with the cylinder out of the gun.

I have not disassembled it as this the first revolver I have owned. However, I have watched a couple Utube videos, have some basic hand tools and experience with rifle 'tweeking' and can follow directions.

My first inclination is to take it apart, see whats broken (I have the broken piece) and buy whatever, and fix it myself.

I understand this gun would be fixed my Ruger under warranty, but I would like to take this opportunity to learn how to take it apart and replace the trigger/hammer spring anyway.(the trigger pull is now, or was, 3lbs..I think i'd like it about 2 lbs).

If it is the pawl, is that something that is, more or less, a drop in fit? Reading about free spin pawl, the idea of a clockwise and counterclockwise spin appeals to me...

edited...doh.

Airfoil,
Easy to take apart, kinda tricky the first time to reassemble. After a few cycles of disassemble/reassemble it gets a bunch easier.
Could you post a picture of the stray piece? More help would then be offered by some of the forum members.
Where do you live - might get lucky and have someone close by who could back you up.
Tim

airfoil said:

Hello...a recently purchased NV .357 has spit out a piece of metal (I was dry firing) and I assume its part of the pawl. The hammer will not cock back with the cylinder in the gun. It will cock with the cylinder in the gun.
..

Click to expand...

Huh? :lol:

Question, were you dry firing with the yellow disc installed behind the cylinder?
The op manual tells you NOT to do that!! A picture of the part would help.

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Uhh, pics are a bit large(first time user an' all)

I was fanning it with the yellow donut in there while standing on my head looking through a mirror doing trick shots at 100 yrds..is that bad? :wink:

Welcome to the forum!

LOL

Ruger will usually send you a new small part like a pawl for free if you call cust. svc.

Pawls are commonly a drop in but occasionally need slight fitting.

Here's the factory Ruger videos, if you haven't seen these. No special tools really needed as you'll see how they do it:
Videos: Good New Model Ruger disassembly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfOXBa8K8Ow

NM Reassembly (shows hammer plunger assembly too):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zEKDqwkgEs&feature=related

Although you want to disassemble this time for the experience, here's a short cut for now or in the future:

SHORTCUT FOR REMOVING JUST HAMMER and/or PAWL:
Recognize, JUST to remove the hammer and pawl, you do not need to hassle with the PESKY LOADING GATE SPRING, pull the trigger pin, trigger OR transfer bar. Once you remove the grip frame, the hammer pin is the only other part you need to remove. Just pull the hammer back and all the way down, then depress the hammer plunger in the base of the hammer with a small tipped screwdriver to clear the trigger extension where the transfer bar connects to it. Let the hammer & pawl fall out. Install in reverse! Piece o' cake.

NOTE: While you have the grip frame off, it's always good to examine the upper end of all the grip frame blind screw holes for thread shavings that weren't cleaned out from the factory and get crammed in there by the screws.

Also check the two trigger guard screw holes where they are exposed by the milling cut if your grip frame has the two projections that go into the main frame. Almost always there will be a huge flat 'roll-over' burr in each hole from the milling cuts that expose the holes (the New Vaquero and New FT BH guns no longer have these projections and milling cuts). If they are present they generally cause the 1st 1/8" of removing those two screws to take extra effort to unscrew. You'll need to break off the burrs and pick them out with a dental pick or equivalent tool.

INSTALLING GRIP FRAMES:
Install all five screws but do not cinch them tight. Align the grip frame edges flush with the cyl frame by tapping with the butt of a plastic handled screw driver. Tighten one trigger guard screw, then front screw and then one ear screw. Then tighten them all. Check for ease of hammer movement to be sure it's not rubbing on grip frame ears.

Yea, I figgered it wasn't a difficult fix, I did look at those Ruger vids on youtube on dis and re-assembly...I can do that. Of course, being a holiday and all, ruger is out celebrating...also read about some aftermarket ones I may try. I did look at Midway, and wasn't sure about the pawls they have being correct as some of the feedback guys said it didn't work.

Anywho, I'll contact the ruger first and see what they say, and THANKS for the encouragement and advice, I'll post how it all turns out.

I was hoping for some insight into what is wrong with mine, when opening this thread. I have a 44 special Sheriff that is locked up now...will do nothing...will not cock, cannot get cylinder out...just locked completely up. Been that way for about 2 weeks...just cannot think to call Ruger during business hours...frustrating to deal with these Ruger problems. This is the 4th new Ruger out of 7 in the last 2yrs, that has had problems...I am sick of it...that is a failure rate of 57%...piss poor quality in my opinion. If I didn't like'em overall, I wouldn't buy another one.

I hear you @Jim Luke - would be nice if Ruger would hear you/us. Bill must be spinning in his grave...

I've not owned many Rugers but of course I'd heard about their "rock solid" reliability and strength...I guess that was when Bill was still at the helm. I have an older Single Six I got used that is a really nice piece. Based on all that, and on the fact that I really liked the trigger and the overall feel of the gun, I bought my LC9s. I'm beginning to really regret that decision.

I think I've figured out why I'm having so many failures under other-than-ideal shooting circumstances. That's a mixed blessing. On the plus side I'm reasonably sure now that I'm NOT limp-wristing (which I'd considered as a serious possibility because of health issues and the small size of the gun). Having the day off today I really took a close look at the pistol and it looks like the extractor is really weak...whether by design or from QC problems remains to be seen. (Another thread on this so I won't go on.)

In any case, between this and a feed ramp that came from the factory looking like an old fashioned washboard I am extremely unlikely to ever buy another new Ruger product...I'll stick to the stuff they made when Bill was at the helm. It's simply unconscionable for an American company to produce a purely defensive pistol with no more QC than this thing got...

John

sad part is they will NOT send you a "new" pawl, as that is considered a "fitted" part ( affects timing and lockup) my bet is they will want the gun returned, , send them the picture and they should send you a "pick up " notice, so no charge in anyway for you, just "loss of time and usage"....
improper heat treat of the pawl most likely.............for them to figure out AND repair.........

I agree,looks like a heat treat issue to me. Give Ruger a call or you can buy a pawl from Midway USA or Brownells and fit it yourself. A good reason to learn about proper carry up and timing..... Or you could let Ruger worry about it.

I was fanning it with the yellow donut in there while standing on my head looking through a mirror doing trick shots at 100 yrds..is that bad? :wink:[/quote]

That is funny! Your off to good start!

Just talked to ruger, and she said they will send me out two new pawls for free...nice.

Agreed, it looks like a heat treat issue or maybe a bad cast.

I have a vague idea on the 'timing' issue and as I now understand it I may have to get out the DREMEL, clamp 'er in the pipe vise, and turn it up to 11!...no I'm kidding...no dremel. I'm sure I can use the old one for reference, and clean up the surfaces inside some and git 'er done. With two, I can screw one up stoning, filing and fitting.

Haven't take it apart yet, I ordered a new Starret 3/32 brass punch for the job, which I probably don't even need...but I like tools.

Looking into this 'free spin' issue, I'm a bit confused. Free spin cylinder, to me, would indicate a cylinder that would rotate BOTH ways...and for some reason, Ruger put in a mechanism to have it spin one way...and it causes issues. The aftermarket pawl (power custom) I saw on Midway doesn't seem to have same the lower 'ear-lobe' as the factory part...which would give me a true 'both ways' spin cylinder. Right?

I'm not spending the 35-50 bucks for the 'improved' pawl or springs YET...but I'm thinnin' about it...

You should not need the brass punch. The hammer pin should slip out easily and the trigger will not need to be removed to replace the pawl. Just compress the hammer plunger and spring enough to clear the trigger and latch using a small screwdriver,the hammer and pawl will slip right out to the rear after the grip frame is removed.

airfoil,

I thought they would send them. Your plan is probably: if the 1st pawl doesn't work, try the 2nd one before doing any fitting. I agree.

The cylinder pawl you are replacing is a true free spin pawl (different design from Powers Custom but with the same result.) If Ruger had stopped at that you would have a free spin cylinder in both directions. You still can, explained below. But first, to explain that your NV has TWO pawls.

NEW MODEL SAFETY TRANSFER BAR SYSTEM:

Not having to manipulate the hammer while loading is part of the safety strategy. It provides zero potential for an AD (accidental discharge) if the thumb slips while lowering the hammer (as needed in the old models) after reloading live rounds while the gun may not be pointed at the target.

So the chamber miss-alignment with the loading gate trough of NMs is a result of not having the hammer in the 1/2 cock position when loading. The hammer controls the cyl pawl position and the pawl in turn controls the position of the cylinder. When the hammer is all the way down, the pawl positions the cylinder only halfway to aligning the chamber with the loading gate. The cyl hasn't moved too far, it actually hasn't moved far enough to align.

But owners wanted chambers to align like old models: with hammer on 1/2 cock and opened gate, the chambers aligned after each click of the pawl.

INDEXING PAWL SYSTEM:

So, Ruger responded to customers and corrected the miss-alignment issue in the New Vaquero and new FT Blackhawk by installing an "Indexing Pawl System" which uses a free spin cyl pawl and a 2nd pawl to click and stop cyl rotation when the chamber and loading gate are in alignment. And it does this, even when the hammer is down, and does not compromise the safety system. The IP System can easily be retrofitted to any New Model or just use the free spin pawl, and removed from NVs and New Flat Tops, just retaining the free spin cyl pawl, for a true free spin cyl on all models. See Photos below:

Indexing pawl button (the 2nd pawl) with a spring behind it:



Hex retaining screw in hammer channel for spring and indexing pawl:



Actually my preference is the factory free spin cyl pawl w/ the indexing pawl system removed for maximum safe manipulation of the cyl while loading and unloading. Being able to reverse the cyl rotation to remove a round with high primer, bullet pulled from recoil, etc., is a huge safety advantage and convenience, because you don't have to pull the cylinder with live rounds in it to unload problem cartridges.

Hope this helps,

Hmm...sounds like there was some LAWYERS involved in all that...clear as mud as to WHY that indexing pawl business...although I guess you can get used to anything.

Anywho, as I now understand it, if I simply remove the little round thingamabob and it's spring...or as you call it, the 'indexing pawl'...it'll free spin. GOOD!

Thanks for your time to explain it to me

Hondo44 said:

Actually my preference is the factory free spin cyl pawl w/ the indexing pawl system removed for maximum safe manipulation of the cyl while loading and unloading. Being able to reverse the cyl rotation to remove a round with high primer, bullet pulled from recoil, etc., is a huge safety advantage and convenience, because you don't have to pull the cylinder with live rounds in it to unload problem cartridges.

Click to expand...

Hondo, thanks for your instructive history of the NM Vaquero. I'm sure your points about the advantages of a free spin system are noteworthy. (Personally I don't see where safety enters into the discussion.) But to say that the newest NM Vaqueros are built to be "free spin" is a bit hasty. There is more to what you are incorrectly calling the Ruger "factory free spin pawl".

It is probable that the op's model actually has the lastest pawl with a lower extension. Airfoil, please post a photo of your pawl when you take it out! I have commented on the new style pawl recently and it is still somewhat of a mystery. Since these new models have an indexing plunger system, it is incorrect to call the new style pawl "free spin", because the cylinder will under no circumstances spin in reverse with the indexing plunger installed. As I have confirmed personally and through other correspondence, many of the pawls come mis-adjusted from the factory, causing difficult or no cylinder rotation in either direction.

There is nowhere in the Ruger owner's manual that mentions the term "free spin", or in any way suggests that the owner remove the indexing plunger if free spin operation is desired. Some creative individuals have removed the plunger with various results, as I've mentioned in detail in recent posts.

Two points I would like to make to Airfoil. The first is that the new style pawl must be carefully hand fit, even more so than a traditional pawl. You will see why it is so when the part arrives. The chances of having a spare part drop in are very small. The second is why the pawl broke in the first place. I doubt that metallurgy is the culprit. The new NM system is extremely difficult to adjust as Ruger may have intended. My personal Vaquero arrived so far out of adjustment that the hammer could not be pulled back and the cylinder would not rotate with the gate open. "Here's your new gun, sir!" I'm betting the pawl broke due to incorrect pawl adjustment and an incorrectly finished cylinder ratchet.

Since the subject is complex, feel free to pm me. I'll be happy to share whatever information I have discovered.

Carry_Up

Single Sixer...that's just what I didn't want to hear...but I hear ya.

I think, now I might send it back. I am 'Bubba' (to a degree), and have not messed with revolvers at all...I've done some rifle and auto pistol 'work'. I do have all my fingers (but I miss my big toe). :wink:

I'm sure I can take it apart and get 'er back together, but...CAREFUL fitting?

OK...this is what I'll do...
Get the pawls, take it apart, (I was going to polish bearing surfaces a mite, but I won't, now) See if it fits, and the timing seems good ...make another decision...basically shoot 'er and see.


If it doesn't go back together, or the timing is wrong, I'll box it up and send it back.

Either way, I'll post a pic of the old pawl.

That sounds reasonable to me...I wonder what my LAWYER...Johnny Cochran, has to say? :roll:

Uhh... I just remembered, I like a free spin pawl...I mean a cylinder that goes both ways. I'm used to that. If the timing is right, and I take that there roundy pawl out...wouldn't that 'solve' my problem?

Carry_Up said:

It is probable that the op's model actually has the lastest pawl with a lower extension. Airfoil, please post a photo of your pawl when you take it out! I have commented on the new style pawl recently and it is still somewhat of a mystery. Since these new models have an indexing plunger system, it is incorrect to call the new style pawl "free spin", because the cylinder will under no circumstances spin in reverse with the indexing plunger installed. As I have confirmed personally and through other correspondence, many of the pawls come mis-adjusted from the factory, causing difficult or no cylinder rotation in either direction.

There is nowhere in the Ruger owner's manual that mentions the term "free spin", or in any way suggests that the owner remove the indexing plunger if free spin operation is desired. Some creative individuals have removed the plunger with various results, as I've mentioned in detail in recent posts.

Two points I would like to make to Airfoil. The first is that the new style pawl must be carefully hand fit, even more so than a traditional pawl. You will see why it is so when the part arrives. The chances of having a spare part drop in are very small. The second is why the pawl broke in the first place. I doubt that metallurgy is the culprit. The new NM system is extremely difficult to adjust as Ruger may have intended. My personal Vaquero arrived so far out of adjustment that the hammer could not be pulled back and the cylinder would not rotate with the gate open. "Here's your new gun, sir!" I'm betting the pawl broke due to incorrect pawl adjustment and an incorrectly finished cylinder ratchet.

Since the subject is complex, feel free to pm me. I'll be happy to share whatever information I have discovered.

Carry_Up

Click to expand...

Carry Up,

With all due respect I'm obligated to correct so much miss-information:

1. One should not try to base their understanding of how Rugers are designed to work, on a malfunctioning gun. A properly functioning gun will work as designed and as I have described.

2. The pawl is a free spin pawl. I did not say the cyl is free spin and neither does Ruger because that's not true due to the Indexing Pawl. And the free spin pawl DOES ALLOW the cyl to reverse spin BUT just far enough for the Indexing Pawl to stop the cyl chamber in alignment with the gate, which also prevents the cyl from free spinning all the way around in reverse. That's why Ruger calls it an Indexing Pawl System instead of a free spin system!.

3. If the indexing pawl is removed the cyl will absolutely completely free spin forward and reverse, in a properly functioning gun!

4. The Ruger free spin pawl was not initially sold to the public because it required "gunsmith fitting". That is no longer the case as confirmed by Ruger sending airfoil two for self installation. That's not to say there can't be an anomaly, but that's not the rule. The grip frame has a special milling cut above the trigger guard for the pawl to correctly function as a free spin pawl.

Showing the milled divot for the free spin pawl included as part of the indexing pawl system only on NM Flat Tops and New Vaqueros on the left:


Ruger standard pawl on left, Ruger free spin pawl on the right:

airfoil said:

Single Sixer...that's just what I didn't want to hear...but I hear ya.

Uhh... I just remembered, I like a free spin pawl...I mean a cylinder that goes both ways. I'm used to that. If the timing is right, and I take that there roundy pawl out...wouldn't that 'solve' my problem?

Click to expand...

airfoil,

Please do not be concerned! And these factory videos are very helpful. You can practice while waiting for the pawls to arrive. And remember my shortcut for removing just the hammer and pawl in my 1st post.

New Model Ruger disassembly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfOXBa8K8Ow

NM Reassembly (shows hammer plunger assembly too):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zEKDqwkgEs&feature=related