Security/Speed Six hammer: a drop-in part?

I just got a bobbed hammer from Numrich for my Security Six and I cannot get the gun to run with it. The new hammer fits in the gun just fine, and I can run the action without the mainspring, but when I reinstall the mainspring, I cannot pull the trigger. It then takes some time of playing with the gun to get the hammer back sufficiently to be able to remove the mainspring and then remove the bobbed hammer.

I have changed out the hammers in my other Security Six and two Speed Sixes without any problems at all and thought that these were drop-in parts that did not need any gunsmithing. Was I just lucky with these three other guns?

This particular Security Six is older than my other one (it has no warning on the barrel and has a very high ridge for the front sight) but otherwise seems identical to it.

I'd appreciate any advice anyone can give me!

Did you happen to put the mainspring correctly? It can go in two ways, one will work the other way it will bind up. The short part of the piece that holds the mainspring in place goes to the rear (closest to the frame). If it is reversed and the short paert is to the front, the mainspring strut will bind against the frame.

Thanks for the thought Ron. Yeah, I put it in correctly this time, as this is certainly a mistake that I have made in the past!

When I found that I could not work the action with this new hammer, I went back and removed and reinserted the bobbed hammers that I earlier put into my other Six series guns just to make sure that I knew what I was doing -- and had no problems with them.

Could I have a defective hammer? It certainly looks just like the other hammers (bobbed and unbobbed) that have fit just fine!

Take the hammer out and mate it with the mainspring strut and see it if pivots on that correctly.

When it is completely installed, can you pull the hammer back with your thumb?

What exactly seems to happen when you try cocking it through a DA pull?

Is the hammer dog pivoting ok?

Don't forget that you need to pull the trigger back a bit when you are installing the hammer to get it to fall into place.

Compare the hammer with another (bobbed or spurred) that works abd see if you can see any differences.

OK.

The hammer mates with the mainspring strut. Although the new (bobbed) hammer looks superficially just like the original spurred hammer, there is a difference. The raised ledge over the spot where the mainspring strut fits into the hammer is slightly longer on the bobbed hammer -- by 1/32 of an inch.

When the hammer is completely installed (with the hammer pivot assembly also installed -- but not the mainspring/mainspring strut), I can pull the hammer back with my thumb and I can cock the gun through a DA pull with the trigger.

But when I then install the mainspring/mainspring strut, the action freezes up.

By "freezing up," I mean that I cannot pull the trigger more than a small fraction of an inch, the cylinder spins freely and the hammer moves back maybe a ¼ of an inch.

I'm not sure what you mean by whether the hammer dog is pivoting ok. The hammer dog does not appear to move when I cock the gun -- with either the new or old hammer installed. The hammer dog seems to function ok (pivoting on its spring) before I install it.

I think that the hammer is properly in place, as I pull the trigger back to get it in and I can then install the hammer pivot assembly just fine.

Thanks again for helping me with this!

Wow, I just don't know. But here are a few more things.

When you put it together, can you pull the hammer back far enough to be able to remove the pin from the bottom of the hammer strut that holds the mainspring in place when disassembling?

When pulling the hammer back in SA mode, with the grips off, is the bottom of the hammer strut contacting anything (you may have to use DA mode to get it started until you can get hold of it with your thumb)? At rest, the hammer strut and mainspring should basically be parallel to the top portion of the backstrap of the frame. When cocking in SA (or DA) mode, you should see the top portion of the strut moving will move down and slightly forward and the bottom of the strut will move down and closer to the rear of the frame.

Also check where that ledge is and see if when you are cocking it does it come in contact with the hammer strut and bind there.

Could you post pictures of the hammer?

Thanks again for taking the time to think about this.

When I put it all together, I cannot pull the hammer back far enough to remove the pin (or, in my case, the paperclip.) To remove the hammer strut and mainspring, I have to force the mainspring seat up with a finger in order to remove the mainspring and mainspring strut. (Well, that's generally true. I just disassembled and reassembled the gun again and the first time that I pulled the trigger, it didn't freeze. But it then froze every time thereafter.)

But when I try to cock the gun and the trigger and hammer move slightly, the top and bottom portions of the hammer strut move just as you suggest, without binding.

When I pull the trigger, the trigger and hammer move for about a ¼ of an inch and then just catch on something.

Today, I took apart my other Six series revolvers and tried my other hammers (including a bobbed hammer that I have in another Security Six) and none of them work in this particular gun. The only hammer that doesn't freeze up the gun is the spurred hammer that came with the gun.

When I compared my other bobbed hammers with the bobbed hammer that I wanted to put into this gun, I found that they are all identical. So, it's not the hammer, it's the gun!

Well, at least you know where to start looking for the problem. I would take it completely apart and also take one of your other Sixes apart and do side by side comparison of each and every piece to see if you see any differences. Compare the frames to see if anything looks different. I just can't imagine what might be going on, I have a lot (40+) Six series guns and I have never had any that wouldn't accept a part from another one and work correctly.

Have you tried a different mainspring strut?

Ron,

My hat's off to you -- 40+ Six series guns! Wow!

Well, I will do as you suggest. First I'll try a different strut. And then a part-by-part comparison. And then I'll take the gun to a "local" gunsmith (an hour's drive away) who is familiar with Six series guns. And then I'll ....

Anyway, this is certainly not the worst problem to have, as the original spurred hammer works just fine.

Thanks again for all of your advice. I'll post the results as I progress in this odd process.

Joaquin

Thanks, sorry I couldn't have been of more help. I would have really liked to see it/get my hands on it to see what is going on. Hard to troubleshoot something like this without having it in your hands but you described everything just fine. Let us know what is found, this is one problem I'd like to know what happened and what the fix was.

The strut was not the problem; other struts did not fix the freeze-up.

And if a part-by-part comparison would yield a "smoking gun," so to speak, my aging eyes aren't good enough to spot it.

I'll report back once I have spoken with a gunsmith, which may not be for some weeks.

Thanks again Ron!

the hammer dog is too short, try the dog from the spurred hammer on your bobbed 1.

A lot of times I see people over polish em & it causes binding or lockups of varing degrees.

All the dog does is get the hammer started ,then the DA sear takes over, if not lifted enuff the sears will lock up.

GP

Hi GP,

Maybe. But it seems to be the gun.

Here is why I think so. I have several bobbed hammers (other than the new one from Numrich), all of which work in my three other Six series guns. None of them work in this particular Security Six. I also have several spurred hammers. Prior to your suggestion, I had not tried them out in this particular gun. Trying out two spurred hammers from two other guns, I find that one of them works just fine. But the other one works only in single action (thumb cocking) and freezes up when I try to fire it in double action.

The new bobbed hammer that I bought for the problem Security Six works just fine in my other Security Six and two Speed Sixes. So, I'd be surprised if someone had Bubba'ed the hammer dog.

Thanks for your attention to my crazy-making problem! I'd certainly be happy to hear any other suggestion that you might have.

J

The hammer dog could still cause the jamming experienced if not modified. When the guns are originally assembled I assume the assembler mixes and matches hammers and/or hammer dogs until the particular gun functions satisfactory as there is not much hand fitting done these days. I have a SP that had a hump in the double action trigger pull about where the double action transitioned from the hammer dog to the double action sear. I ordered some extra hammer dogs from Numrich and switched them around until I had a smooth DA pull. There are not many other things that could cause a bind in double action but work in single action without a hitch.

That makes sense. I've just ordered four hammer dogs from Numrich (and an extra spring and plunger, as these things tend to fly off into the sky) to see whether I can fix my problem the way you suggest. If it works, it would certainly be a great, cheap fix!

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll keep you posted.

Following up on Thel's suggestion, I swapped out hammer dogs between the spurred hammer that works fine and the bobbed hammer that doesn't work at all. At first I thought that this gave me two hammers that don't work, as the gun seemed to function, but for the fact that the trigger would not return to its uncocked position. Then I realized that the trigger return spring had snapped. I think that had it not snapped I would have found that the trigger dog swap had solved my problem. But as I don't have another spring, I'm not sure. (I am not going to use the trigger return spring from another gun to try it out, as I know from experience that although I can get them out of the trigger easily enough, I cannot get them back in again.)

While doing all this, I lost the hammer dog pivot pin for the bobbed hammer (it seems to have dematerialized!).

I guess that the trigger return spring would have snapped at some point anyway and I'd rather have it snap when gun smithing than in an IDPA match or when trying to defend myself!

Anyway, tomorrow I will modify my Numrich order to include both a trigger return spring and a hammer dog pivot pin. And having played with the hammer dogs for a while, I see that I really don't need an extra hammer dog spring and plunger.

Disassemble in a gallon Ziploc bag to keep things from takin orbit around partbegone planet.

Yeah, I've done that in the past, and this time I got lazy!