Heavy&Slow vs. Light&Fast

GunnyGene · Jan 28, 2019

OK, heeeerrre we go. The never ending argument between big and slow vs small and fast just went to another level with some new ammo at SHOT.

Excerpt:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2019/01/jeremy-s/shot-show-seismic-ammos-extremely-heavy-projectiles-in-9mm-45-acp-and-12-gauge/

At SHOT Show's Range Day, Seismic Ammo unveiled their +M (extra mass) heavy ammo and let us shoot some. How heavy is heavy? How about 185 grain 9mm, 325 grain .45 ACP, and 2.5 ounce 12 gauge slugs .

contender · Jan 28, 2019

Only sales will tell if it succeeds.

powder smoke · Jan 28, 2019

Heavy =s more mass, add some velocity now you got some knock down power.
Sledge hammer type! Got some cast performance 325 grn. 45 colt gas check
bullets to play with. Going to get them loaded soon should be pretty good thumpers!

I'm in the heavier is better and harder hitting camp Trouble is I pay the
price on the recoil end. ps

SweetWilliam · Jan 28, 2019

2.5 oz 12ga slug = Big Medicine
Can't wait to see the velocity on these.
Heaviest chunk of lead I've ever heard of being fired out of a gun.
The 9mm & 45 Bullets resemble platinum tip bullets

grobin · Jan 28, 2019

The reality is that recoil is directly determined by muzzle energy. It doesn't matter if you fire a 85 gr8 or a 185 bullet with the same muzzle energy they have the same recoil. The lighter bullet may have higher perceived recoil due to it being sharper.

woodperson · Jan 28, 2019

No, that is not right. Recoil of the gun will be related to the bullet momentum, MV rather than to the the kinetic energy, MV squared. So you can have 2 loads with the same recoil but one can have a higher muzzle energy than the other. Light bullet with high velocity will have more energy.

Momentum, mv, is the quantity that is conserved when firing a gun.

I do not know if penetration corresponds more closely with momentum or kinetic energy? I would have thought kinetic energy. The ammo Gunny showed sounds like something from a Lee Child novel. I think the main feature is that it kills while still being subsonic? I do not see a huge need for that.

grobin · Jan 28, 2019

You are right! I sit corrected. With the same pendulum recoil the light bullet will have far more muzzle energy. me=mxv^2. The energy transferred to the target does the damage!

Mobuck · Jan 28, 2019

I don't shoot hippo or elephant with a 9mm so don't see the need.

Mus408 · Jan 28, 2019

How do they get a 325 gr. bullet in a .45 ACP case with room left for powder and a 1.260 COL which seems to feed best in a 1911?

RandyP · Jan 29, 2019

Good grief! And I thought the phony ads for fishing lure "systems" were nutz. - lol

I WILL give kudos to advertising and marketing geniuses who can create products engineered to either catch fishermen or hit shooter's wallets with a bullseye.

I am one of those 'old school' types (AKA geezers-lol) who values time and money spent in quality practice at the range. IF you can always get yer boolits to hit right where you wanted them to? The actual bullet will not matter to the outcome of the shooting......IMHO

GunnyGene · Jan 29, 2019

If these ever come to market at your LGS, I fully expect them to be added to the list of Banned stuff. I can almost smell the outrage by Giffords, etc. at the mere thought of a 2.5 oz shotgun slug or any of the other bullets being contemplated by this company.

SweetWilliam · Jan 29, 2019

I don't think they would be banned. They aren't going to do anything special, they're just heavy bullets. And in the 12ga loads real heavy. I can imagine they will be in the 800/900 fps range. I've shot a bunch of Federal 1 1/4oz slugs back in the day and they'll jolt your shoulder. I'll buy a couple boxes if they come around.
And I was thinking the same thing about powder capacity in both 9mm and 45acp.
And chambering problems too.
I see not much sense in a 9mm or a 45acp with heavy bullets if you can't push them fast enough. But I like a 2 1/2oz even if it is only going 800fps. Don't know what I would do with it, but I like it.

GunnyGene · Jan 29, 2019

SweetWilliam said:
I don't think they would be banned. They aren't going to do anything special, they're just heavy bullets. And in the 12ga loads real heavy. I can imagine they will be in the 800/900 fps range. I've shot a bunch of Federal 1 1/4oz slugs back in the day and they'll jolt your shoulder. I'll buy a couple boxes if they come around.
And I was thinking the same thing about powder capacity in both 9mm and 45acp.
And chambering problems too.
I see not much sense in a 9mm or a 45acp with heavy bullets if you can't push them fast enough. But I like a 2 1/2oz even if it is only going 800fps. Don't know what I would do with it, but I like it.

Technical facts are irrelevant to the Giffords/Bloombergs, et al. Note the banning of certain firearms because of cosmetics, and magazines that hold more ammo than some arbitrary number, etc. etc.

Mus408 · Jan 29, 2019

I 'll save the real heavy and slow for my .45-70 !

grobin · Jan 29, 2019

^. +1
Big and slow carries less energy than light and fast, but it's the energy transferred to the target that counts, this depends and that's where the argument enteres!

SAJohn · Jan 29, 2019

The old blackpowder .45-70 Sharps and the modern 220 Swift have about the same muzzle energy. Which would you prefer to use against a charging buffalo?

grobin · Jan 29, 2019

It depends but unless I'm a sniper the 45/70! Transferred energy is what kills! The 220 is way ahead over 200 y, but that depends on the bullet. The 45/70 will do the job as well or better to ~200y. If we are talking a solid or match bullet the energy transfer may be trivial for the 220 at close ranges. Even some hollow points can go through the target with nominal damage at that range (unlikely with modern hollow points).

Rick Courtright · Jan 30, 2019

Hi,

Let's say we have two bullets, one a soft point, the other a full metal jacket (FMJ.) They're the same caliber, weight, loaded to the same velocity, same rifle, shot at the same animal, same distance, etc.--in other words, the only variable is the construction of the bullets. Both bullets stop inside the animal without exiting the body. The soft point made a classic "2x diameter" mushroom, while the FMJ exhibits no deformation outside the rifling marks. Which bullet transfers more energy?

Yes, this is a test question... or could have been in my HS physics class. Our teacher's Dad owned a gun shop, so we had a number of firearm related questions and examples when studying Mr. Newton's thoughts on motion.

Rick C

GunnyGene · Jan 30, 2019

Rick Courtright said:
Hi,

Let's say we have two bullets, one a soft point, the other a full metal jacket (FMJ.) They're the same caliber, weight, loaded to the same velocity, same rifle, shot at the same animal, same distance, etc.--in other words, the only variable is the construction of the bullets. Both bullets stop inside the animal without exiting the body. The soft point made a classic "2x diameter" mushroom, while the FMJ exhibits no deformation outside the rifling marks. Which bullet transfers more energy?

Yes, this is a test question... or could have been in my HS physics class. Our teacher's Dad owned a gun shop, so we had a number of firearm related questions and examples when studying Mr. Newton's thoughts on motion.

Rick C

Total energy transfer would be the same. It would simply be distributed differently.

Mus408 · Jan 30, 2019

Still waiting for the dead animal to tell us which one hurt the most!

Heavy&Slow vs. Light&Fast

Help Support Ruger Forum:

Hawkeye

Ruger Guru

Hawkeye

Buckeye

Blackhawk

Single-Sixer

Blackhawk

Hawkeye

Hunter

Bearcat

Hawkeye

Buckeye

Hawkeye

Hunter

Blackhawk

Hunter

Blackhawk

Hawkeye

Hawkeye

Hunter

Similar threads