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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:41 am 
Hawkeye
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The way I understand it is Flurocarbons are bad for the stratosphere and they deplete the ozone layer up there. Hydrocarbons at the earth's surface can be turned into ozone at ground level and are bad for our health, like the hydocarbons aren't bad enough.

If anybody thinks the science is wrong maybe they should read up on it before claiming 'common sense' nonsense. If you think the science is wrong how about cigarettes or lead in gasoline or mercury and sulfur dioxide spewing from coal power plants or how about PBA's being dumped into our waterways, are these just false alarms like the ozone hole in our atmosphere? All of these are problems that science has identified to be harmful to our health. Common sense should tell us that science has identified millions of products and compounds that are harmful to our health and yet folks will say , "no I don't think so". Some people just want to be known as being hard headed and to not believe science. It is a good thing most people know better including most lawmakers.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:57 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:09 am
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You still haven't explained why the EPA passed regs to eliminate ozone.
If its bad near the ground why does rain washed air smell so good? Its ozone.
Ozone is created by lightning. Why are the spraying aluminum in the air to create an electrical conductor? Its why lightning storms are much worse today.
Since you say we should look up the science on ozone before "spouting common sense nonsense" how about doing the same with MMGW?
Oh yeah...there is NO scientific fact on that.
So, since you have the scientific facts on ozone, would you care to share them with us?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:32 am 
Hawkeye
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Jimbo357mag wrote:
It is a good thing most people know better including most lawmakers.

ROFLMAO :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:19 pm 
Hawkeye
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Cholo wrote:
Jimbo357mag wrote:
[edit to add]If anybody thinks the science is wrong maybe they should read up on it before claiming 'common sense' nonsense. If you think the science is wrong how about cigarettes or lead in gasoline or mercury and sulfur dioxide spewing from coal power plants or how about PBA's being dumped into our waterways, are these just false alarms like the ozone hole in our atmosphere? All of these are problems that science has identified to be harmful to our health. Common sense should tell us that science has identified millions of products and compounds that are harmful to our health and yet folks will say , "no I don't think so". Some people just want to be known as being hard headed and to not believe science.] It is a good thing most people know better including most lawmakers.

ROFLMAO :mrgreen:

Surely you are not laughing at the people that try and protect the environment. Those are the same people that try to protect the most beautiful places on earth, the very places where you like to stop and visit and take pictures of, on your road trips. I know better that that and you should also. Everyone here should know better than that but still it happens. What would our country be like if it were not protected? I have heard they even want to mine in the Grand Canyon.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=281670

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:35 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 2:01 am
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Jimbo if it was protected by people like you, no one would be allowed to visit those places. Enviro whacko's always seem to have to go overboard and make up their own rules as they go along.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:32 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:09 am
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Still waiting for an explanation about the EPA. Still not holding my breath.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:14 am 
Hawkeye
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Bear Paw Jack wrote:
Jimbo if it was protected by people like you, no one would be allowed to visit those places. Enviro whacko's always seem to have to go overboard and make up their own rules as they go along.

There is some truth there because there is environmental over-reach but in the case of the ozone layer and the banning of flourocarbons I think they hit the mark.

Bull Barrel wrote:
Still waiting for an explanation about the EPA. Still not holding my breath.

Perhaps you should look for your own answer?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:08 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:09 am
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Location: The Liberal held left bank of the Mississippi River
You made the claim my friend.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:17 am 
Hawkeye
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Bull Barrel wrote:
Hmmm....if ozone is what protects us why did the EPA enact regulations to eliminate ozone?
Remember smog? It should have protected us.

Come on BB this is what you asked. It is dumb. There is a big difference in stratospheric ozone and the ozone that is poisonous that is created from hydrocarbons at ground level. ozone is not good for human health but it does filter out ultraviolet radiation in the upper atmosphere.

from wiki. Ozone is a powerful oxidant (far more so than dioxygen) and has many industrial and consumer applications related to oxidation. This same high oxidising potential, however, causes ozone to damage mucous and respiratory tissues in animals, and also tissues in plants, above concentrations of about 0.1 ppm. While this makes ozone a potent respiratory hazard and pollutant near ground level, a higher concentration in the ozone layer (from two to eight ppm) is beneficial, preventing damaging UV light from reaching the Earth's surface.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:18 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:17 pm
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As much as I hate to admit it, Jimbo's link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone is quite informative. I hit the high spots which merely proved to me I should read the whooooole thing, and it's a whopper. My initial impression is that this is a subject not readily explained by doing a cut & paste of a sentence or two from the link . . . so I won't try. I will, however make another pot of coffee and start reading. At this point, I don't have a position on the issue.

:wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:53 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:01 am
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Location: Redlands CA USA
Hi,

Somebody's gotta fill in something that's apparently occurred in the half century since I took HS chemistry:

Ozone is chemically O3. In other words, three oxygen atoms bonded together. Odd, since oxygen likes to work in twos, but that's what it is. Now, whether O3 is at sea level or 100,000 ft, it's still O3. Unless there's some other chemical situation going on, such as an isotope with a different charge on one of the atoms than "regular" O3.

My brother in law, who knows everything, just ask him, spent hours trying to find out how all this works when I posed the problem at T-day dinner as I've described earlier. He could only come up with "there are different types of O3" exactly as Jimbo argues. BUT, neither of you guys has shown me what they are, how they're different, etc. In other words, the basics a good chemist oughta be able to show us with just a few scribbles on the chalkboard.

Until that happens, I'll remain a doubter--that's NOT a denier (think of the difference between an agnostic and an atheist, while the "true believers" have their own arguments about their gods)--and this shall remain unproven, a theory. Making law on "theory" makes as little sense in environmental venues as it does in gun venues.

To borrow from the late Jack Webb, "Just the facts, Ma'am." It always gets quiet about there... ;)

Rick C

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:29 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:09 am
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And still doesn't explain why the EPA passed regs to do away with ozone.
Ozone is formed by lightning. Its naturally occurring.
Ozone is either good or bad. It can't be both.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:12 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:07 pm
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Location: Wesley Chapel, Florida
Mosty of the "scientific" articles on the subject "reviewed" by those following the same pathway to government grants, don't agree and your article gets rejected. Never forget "Global Cooling" coming, never forget the English university who got caught modifying their facts and NEVER submitted their supposed "primary research numbers" to scrutiny, by others; never forget if your "theory" doesn't agree with the current claims, you get NO grants; never forget the "consensus" was a very small number of "scientists" and they excluded those that disagreed from the count.
Also IF it's such a threat, WHY are the "gatherings" all held in resort areas, everybody flies in on polluting private jets and gets transported in POLLUTING SUV's. If the SEA/Oceans are rising why did Al Gore and Obama buy land on the Ocean front?
WHY were RECORDED temperatures from the past altered?
Strange how the "Little Ice Age" of the 1650's gets ignored, that there was LESS ice in the arctic in the past at one point, that in the past they were able to raise grapes and make wine in Norway, Scotland and Northern England.
Yet they want to blame everything on a VERY MINOR element in the atmosphere as the cause when that very element makes trees and other vegetation grow and provide food and oxygen.
BUT they have people who suck up it all as if it were the truth and PROVEN facts, but there have been those types forever.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:50 am 
Hunter

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:03 pm
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It's now ancient history, I am sure many of us here are old enough, as I am, to remember that plugging the ozone hole by banning Air Conditioner Freezone was not promoted by the scammers to stop Global Warming. It was politically promoted by fake scientists to prevent an ice age. The Global warming scam came along a little later when the scammers learned that blaming humans for the weather was worth Trillions of dollars.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:25 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:01 am
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Location: Redlands CA USA
Rancher Will wrote:
It's now ancient history, I am sure many of us here are old enough, as I am, to remember that plugging the ozone hole by banning Air Conditioner Freezone


Hi,

This might have happened when you were a wee little rat, Will, so while you might not remember it, I'm sure you've heard how Freon was developed as an "environmentally friendly" replacement for the common refrigerant of the day: ammonia!

And yet, the world still revolves in a circle and what goes away eventually comes back. Look at some of the arguments why ammonia never truly went away as a refrigerant: https://www.ashrae.org/File%20Library/A ... D-2017.pdf

Interesting in there somewhere is the comment that ammonia (NH3) is environmentally neutral. At least today! I'll bet your cattle love knowing that when it's time to find a flat rock! I don't see a lot of cattle these days, but it's still common to see ammonia tanks next to irrigation canals. I understand the plants just love the N (nitrogen) in it.

Whatcha wanta bet somebody's gonna figure the plants suck up the N, then take the H3 waste, combine it with some of those O2 molecules from the CO2 to C plus O2 conversion, and release the result as water. I don't remember how to combine atoms and molecules from that long ago HS chem class, but I do remember the teacher hammering on us to get our equations balanced. That part seems to work. Hmmm... ;)

Left to her own devices, Ma Nature's a pretty amazing lady, isn't she?

Rick C

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