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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:46 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:01 am
Posts: 9579
Location: Memphis, TN USA
I've been mulling over the Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers submitted to the US Army test trials beginning in 1900. So many different pistols and revolvers, and in varying calibers, were submitted that trials held in 1907 specified that all guns submitted must be chambered for one of two cartridges. a .45 caliber rimless cartridge for automatic pistols, and a rimmed version for revolvers. Except for being either rimmed or rimless, the cartridges were as identical as possible. Both Colt and Smith & Wesson entered samples of double action revolvers.

There is a notation that by 1910 it was an accepted fact that any handgun adopted would be an automatic. In the 1910 trials, reference is made that a Colt M1909 revolver in .45 ACP was used as a comparator.

I am questioning that remark as the M1909 was chambered for the M1909 cartridge, essentially a .45 Colt with larger diameter rim. Thus it would not have been able to fire the .45 ACP cartridge,and half moon clips were some seven years away. My thinking is that the Colt used in this test was one of the Colts, a New Service, chambered for the .45-06 revolver cartridge. If so chambered, with the shoulder in the chamber, it would accommodate the .45 Auto cartridge, but would require a push stick for extraction.

I have sent an inquiry to the NRA's Dope Bag about this.

Bob Wright


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:18 pm 
Hawkeye
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Location: On the beach and in the hills
Bob, the reading I've done indicates that the 1909 as used by the United States Army was chambered for the 45 colt. What I find indicates that the New Service revolver was chambered in .45 acp only after the 1911 and thus its cartridge had been adopted.

There was a wildcat the Remington-Thompson 45 in the late teens or early twenties that was pretty much what the .45 super is energy wise today.

The 45-06 was also a wildcat but it was based on an 06 case necked up to .45 caliber. It was intended for use in rifles.

When you hear back let us know the word.

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Jeepnik "AKA Old Eyes"
"Every man should have at least one good rifle, and know how to use it." Dad
"Go low, go slow, and preferably in the dark." The old Sarge (he was like 25)
The man who says a thing can't be done is usually interrupted by the man who is doing it.
"Freedom is never more than a generation from extinction." Ronald Reagan


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:45 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:01 am
Posts: 9579
Location: Memphis, TN USA
Jeepnik wrote:
Bob, the reading I've done indicates that the 1909 as used by the United States Army was chambered for the 45 colt. What I find indicates that the New Service revolver was chambered in .45 acp only after the 1911 and thus its cartridge had been adopted.

There was a wildcat the Remington-Thompson 45 in the late teens or early twenties that was pretty much what the .45 super is energy wise today.

The 45-06 was also a wildcat but it was based on an 06 case necked up to .45 caliber. It was intended for use in rifles.

When you hear back let us know the word.


I understand that, but my point is, the revolver for the 1910 trials was likely one from the 1907 trials, so would have been chambered for the .45-06 rimmed cartridge. This would have been very close to the M1917 Colt except for the clearance provided for the half moon clips, therefore was not an M1909 revolver but was a New Service submitted for the trials of 1907.

I'm saying there is a discrepancy in the American Rifleman's text.

Bob Wright


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:57 pm 
Hawkeye
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Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:01 am
Posts: 6365
Location: On the beach and in the hills
Got it. But please let us know what they say. Actually if one had access to the archives they could likely find the answer. The government, if nothing else, seems to like to keep records, forever.

_________________
Jeepnik "AKA Old Eyes"
"Every man should have at least one good rifle, and know how to use it." Dad
"Go low, go slow, and preferably in the dark." The old Sarge (he was like 25)
The man who says a thing can't be done is usually interrupted by the man who is doing it.
"Freedom is never more than a generation from extinction." Ronald Reagan


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:49 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:01 am
Posts: 9579
Location: Memphis, TN USA
And further......................

From a correspondent over on the Smith &Wesson forum: Smith & Wesson anticipated the possibility that the .45 M1906 revolver cartridge might be adopted by the Army and jumped on the possibility that they could market it as the ".45 S&W Special" on the commercial market. S&W went so far as to order a quantity of boxes for the .45 S&W Special. When this failed to come to fruition, S&W was stuck with a batch of cardboard boxes. Their relief came with the order from England for .455 caliber revolvers. These boxes were used to ship those guns in with the end label overlaid with the correct label. However, the information label inside the box cover remained.

So far, two of those revolvers, chambered for the .45 M1906 cartridge are known to exist, these are Triple Lock Models. There remains the question of the Colt revolvers, though.

Bob Wright


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