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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:20 am 
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Hawkeye
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There is also strong evidence that the declaration of war by the USSR had as much influence on the emperor's decision as the atomic bombs. I believe that came after the bombs were dropped. The Japanese did not want to be occupied by the Russians.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:35 am 
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Blackhawk

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What evidence do you have that Japan was going to surrender? Up until he decided on surrender, after the two atomic bombings, the Emperor remained adamant against surrender. The military leadership of Japan likewise. I do not know of any credible evidence that the LEADERS in Japan, who were the only ones with the authority to do so, even considered surrender until after the two bombs were dropped.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:56 am 
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Hawkeye
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Well,
I don't know where you got your info, but you might read a little bit about the bombing of Tokyo March 9-10 1945.
Some of the facts.
Over 50% of Tokyo was destroyed by the end of World War II. The Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9/10 March 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II; greater than Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events
Approximately 16 square miles of the city were destroyed and some 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the resulting firestorm, more immediate deaths than either of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Fierce winds whipped the flames and walls of fire blocked tens of thousands fleeing for their lives. An estimated 1.5 million people lived in the burned out areas. The estimate was kept low by both Japan and the US
Maybe you should watch the video to learn a little more about the surrender which was not going to happen.
Tokyo after 3-10-45
Image

Image


Last edited by Wyandot Jim on Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:00 am 
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Hawkeye

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It appears that some folks are commenting without having watched the video as some of these topics were discussed in detail.

;)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:23 am 
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Hawkeye
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The Japanese got exactly what they deserved !!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:03 am 
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Blackhawk

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I never disputed the damage done to Japanese cities before the atomic bombs but nothing you have presented supports the idea that Japan was ready to surrender. As Bill Whittle states, the Japanese leadership was prepared to suffer 20 million casualties to stop the Allies from taking the home islands.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Hawkeye

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blume357 wrote:
One of the interesting items I've learned just recently is that a few months before we dropped the Atomic Bombs we fire bombed Tokyo and killed something like 86,000 people. The truth in hindsight is that Japan was preparing to surrender and would have with out the A-Bomb. But as far as I know, no one in power in the U.S. knew this and for all concerned it looked like they were going to attempt to fight to the last man..... after Iwo and other islands we took this seemed an absolute certainty.


Since this isn't "political" I don't feel badly about setting you straight.

Yes, the firebombings of Tokyo months before the A-bombs killed many more Japanese than the atomic bombs. NO, Japan was NOT "preparing to surrender" and Japan would NOT have surrendered without the face saving aspect that the atomic bombs brought into play.

One of several good books about these times is The Fall of Japan, by (I believe) William Craig. He notes (as do others) that the "peace feelers" which were sent out through emissaries to the Allies were NOT coming from anyone in the Japanese High Command. Hence, they were meaningless. The equivalent in Europe would have been for the janitor at Hitler's bunker to be sending out "peace feelers." Meaningless.

In fact, the Japanese government had prepared and distributed propaganda films which made clear that Japanese resistance upon the invasion of the Japanese home islands would involve "the mobilization of the children." Yes, that's right. Even kids were expected to participate in the resistance. Mothers with toddlers were expected to kill their own children, rather than submit to the "disgrace" of surrender.

Talk to American veterans who went ashore after the surrender. The number of suicide planes, suicide boats, and the number of people willing to man these terribly destructive weapons were not lacking. Every report written about what the Japanese had in store for the invasion forces is nothing short of shocking. There would have been an absolute waste of, most likely, at least two million people, the majority of whom would have been Japanese. America certainly would have lost at least as many men as we'd lost in the entire war to date, over 300,000.

Even after Emperor Hirohito was made aware of the terrible destruction from our 2nd bomb at Nagasaki (we dropped the 2nd bomb because there was not even the smallest amount of talk about surrender after our first bomb was dropped on Hiroshima), and the Emperor himself decided that surrender was the only tenable action, there was an attempted coup by furious Japanese Army officers. They attempted to storm the Imperial Palace and do the unthinkable: assassinate the Emperor. This plot, of course, was to end the talk of surrender. There were a considerable number of men in the Japanese High Command (mostly Army) who were fine with Japan fighting to the last man, woman, and child.

Please avail yourself of the casualty estimates for both the American and the Japanese had Operation Downfall been necessary. The "low" estimates for American losses were in the neighborhood of 300,000 and the high estimates were 1,000,000 Americans killed or wounded. The casualty estimates for the Japanese were phenomenal. "Low" estimates were one to two million dead. High estimates were ... EVERYONE dead.

Dropping the bombs allowed the Japanese people, and their Emperor to "save face" because this new weapon truly had the potential to wipe out large percentages of their population. Had America not dropped those two bombs, the Japanese High Command would have DEFINITELY continued to fight on, pulling millions of civilians into the fight once the invasion of the Home Islands had started.

Please do not perpetuate the thoroughly dishonest notion that "the Japanese were preparing to surrender anyway." That is dishonest nonsense. - DixieBoy

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Hawkeye
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Americans should watch the video (on their Japanese computers and TV monitors) so they can decide for themselves who won the war, and who won the next generations. God's will has been done.

Oh yeah, schools in NY (the state) cannot mention war and nuclear weapons anymore, so maybe the next generation will have to hear about the Manhattan Project at home...

Sorry for the drift, y'all were having such a good time debating the "facts" as we're allowed to know.
Yes, a sardonic morning. Deal. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Blackhawk

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How many times can the President apologize for America being a bully, an evil empire, a hoarder of world resources, etc., etc., before the youth of the country take this as gospel? A sign of the times: I recently signed up for Twitter (although I have yet to find a value in this "social network" and as part of the signup was asked to describe myself. I put down one word: patriot. I was subsequently accused by several family members, and some others of being a "right wing crazy". What a sad state this country has come to when being a patriot was a negative attribute. I guess more people already agree with John Stewart than they would with Bill Whittle, if they even would take the time to watch his videos.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Hawkeye

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blume357 wrote:
One of the interesting items I've learned just recently is that a few months before we dropped the Atomic Bombs we fire bombed Tokyo and killed something like 86,000 people. The truth in hindsight is that Japan was preparing to surrender and would have with out the A-Bomb. But as far as I know, no one in power in the U.S. knew this and for all concerned it looked like they were going to attempt to fight to the last man..... after Iwo and other islands we took this seemed an absolute certainty.


Japan wanted a "CONDITIONAL Surrender" which meant that the Military would have STILL been in control and the same thing would have started again. The USA and its Allies wanted an UNCONDITIONAL surrender and THAT is what we finally got AFTER Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do try to get your history right.
BTW, their war lords AND the emperor WERE planning on a fight to the death including children used as "Death bombs.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:04 pm 
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Hawkeye
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Colonialgirl wrote:
blume357 wrote:
One of the interesting items I've learned just recently is that a few months before we dropped the Atomic Bombs we fire bombed Tokyo and killed something like 86,000 people. The truth in hindsight is that Japan was preparing to surrender and would have with out the A-Bomb. But as far as I know, no one in power in the U.S. knew this and for all concerned it looked like they were going to attempt to fight to the last man..... after Iwo and other islands we took this seemed an absolute certainty.


Japan wanted a "CONDITIONAL Surrender" which meant that the Military would have STILL been in control and the same thing would have started again. The USA and its Allies wanted an UNCONDITIONAL surrender and THAT is what we finally got AFTER Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do try to get your history right.
BTW, their war lords AND the emperor WERE planning on a fight to the death including children used as "Death bombs.



OK What kind of surrender did Germany get? If you are going to knock the crap out of somebody that started the fight and lose a lot of folks. How else could it be?

So were they out there with signs that said we want a conditional surrender??? When they were given the opportunity to surrender in other battles, did it work?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:02 am 
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Hunter
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DixieBoy wrote:
blume357 wrote:
One of the interesting items I've learned just recently is that a few months before we dropped the Atomic Bombs we fire bombed Tokyo and killed something like 86,000 people. The truth in hindsight is that Japan was preparing to surrender and would have with out the A-Bomb. But as far as I know, no one in power in the U.S. knew this and for all concerned it looked like they were going to attempt to fight to the last man..... after Iwo and other islands we took this seemed an absolute certainty.


Since this isn't "political" I don't feel badly about setting you straight.

Yes, the firebombings of Tokyo months before the A-bombs killed many more Japanese than the atomic bombs. NO, Japan was NOT "preparing to surrender" and Japan would NOT have surrendered without the face saving aspect that the atomic bombs brought into play.

One of several good books about these times is The Fall of Japan, by (I believe) William Craig. He notes (as do others) that the "peace feelers" which were sent out through emissaries to the Allies were NOT coming from anyone in the Japanese High Command. Hence, they were meaningless. The equivalent in Europe would have been for the janitor at Hitler's bunker to be sending out "peace feelers." Meaningless.

In fact, the Japanese government had prepared and distributed propaganda films which made clear that Japanese resistance upon the invasion of the Japanese home islands would involve "the mobilization of the children." Yes, that's right. Even kids were expected to participate in the resistance. Mothers with toddlers were expected to kill their own children, rather than submit to the "disgrace" of surrender.

Talk to American veterans who went ashore after the surrender. The number of suicide planes, suicide boats, and the number of people willing to man these terribly destructive weapons were not lacking. Every report written about what the Japanese had in store for the invasion forces is nothing short of shocking. There would have been an absolute waste of, most likely, at least two million people, the majority of whom would have been Japanese. America certainly would have lost at least as many men as we'd lost in the entire war to date, over 300,000.

Even after Emperor Hirohito was made aware of the terrible destruction from our 2nd bomb at Nagasaki (we dropped the 2nd bomb because there was not even the smallest amount of talk about surrender after our first bomb was dropped on Hiroshima), and the Emperor himself decided that surrender was the only tenable action, there was an attempted coup by furious Japanese Army officers. They attempted to storm the Imperial Palace and do the unthinkable: assassinate the Emperor. This plot, of course, was to end the talk of surrender. There were a considerable number of men in the Japanese High Command (mostly Army) who were fine with Japan fighting to the last man, woman, and child.

Please avail yourself of the casualty estimates for both the American and the Japanese had Operation Downfall been necessary. The "low" estimates for American losses were in the neighborhood of 300,000 and the high estimates were 1,000,000 Americans killed or wounded. The casualty estimates for the Japanese were phenomenal. "Low" estimates were one to two million dead. High estimates were ... EVERYONE dead.

Dropping the bombs allowed the Japanese people, and their Emperor to "save face" because this new weapon truly had the potential to wipe out large percentages of their population. Had America not dropped those two bombs, the Japanese High Command would have DEFINITELY continued to fight on, pulling millions of civilians into the fight once the invasion of the Home Islands had started.

Please do not perpetuate the thoroughly dishonest notion that "the Japanese were preparing to surrender anyway." That is dishonest nonsense. - DixieBoy

+1

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:51 am 
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I've seen estimates of what it would cost in American lives to take and hold the Japanese Islands. All were over one million lives. I had a Bataan death march survivor for a friend. Bombs away ! I got no problem with the bombings. My Dad served in the Pacific. He was kinda glad for the bombings. stevemb


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:00 am 
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Hawkeye

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stevemb wrote:
I've seen estimates of what it would cost in American lives to take and hold the Japanese Islands. All were over one million lives. I had a Bataan death march survivor for a friend. Bombs away ! I got no problem with the bombings. My Dad served in the Pacific. He was kinda glad for the bombings. stevemb


Any sane, rational human and ALL of the military that were scheduled for the invasion were grateful for the bombs. It saved anywhere from 300,000 to 1,000,000 American lives and what would have been the necessary slaughter of millions of Japanese civilians and children.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:59 pm 
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Hawkeye
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I have to disagree on the 'plan to surrender' now, the only documentation I have is a documentary on I believe the history channel and I believe it was based on the reports from various members of the Japanese high command. As I remember it the Navy and Civilian authorities wanted to 'sue' for peace... but the Army which had the strong hold in the committee wanted to wait another 6 months or so to save face.....

Now we can argue about this till the hens come in but I'm not saying we were wrong in dropping the big one... as I understand it everyone in the high command of the U.S. was under the assumption that as y'all have stated the Japanese people were going to fight to the last person or close to it. If anyone is to blame for the loss of life from those bombs and the other air raids we did, it is the folks that ruled Japan during this time.


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