77/44 ruptured primers

I made a range trip today to shoot a few rifles. Among them was my 77/44. The loads were hand loads of H-110 powder and 180grain and 240 grain bullets. Both loads were about .5 grain under maximum (according to a couple of reloading manuals. I used Winchester large pistol primers which are supposed to be good for standard and magnum loads. When I cleaned the 77/44, I noticed three spots on the bolt face that would not clean off. I looked at them through magnification and found them to be pits caused by gas cutting. Then I inspected my 20 fired cases with the magnification loop and found three with ruptured primers. The primers were not flattened out very much, but definitely ruptured. I bought the primers no more than a few months ago. I do believe this is the first time that I have used them with H-110 propellent. I will not load any more H-110 loads with these primers. Has anyone else out there had any such occurrences with 44 magnum loads?

Are you using the new Winchester primers with the thinner cups? I have only recently seen these, but have not used them.

Matt, that is very possible. As I said, I purchased these primers recently. They are packaged in a dark blue package. Where did you hear about them having a thinner cup? If that is the case, I won't use any more of them in my magnum loads.

I have loaded thousands of rounds of 44 Mag with H110 and Winchester primers without ever having a single instance as you have described, though I mostly use 300 grain bullets. My current supply of Winchester primers are also from the dark blue package, probably have had them on hand for 3-4 years.

Dave

RJ556, Use Large RIFLE primers and the problem will go away.

OldRugerMan, do you mean Large rifle standard with Magnum level loads (ball powders, like H-110 etc,) or Large rifle Magnum primers with those propellents? Also, will the rifle primers seat just below flush with the case head in 44 mag cases? Also, will the rifle primers make enough difference in pressure to warrant reducing the powder charge? Thanks.

RJ556 said:

OldRugerMan, do you mean Large rifle standard with Magnum level loads (ball powders, like H-110 etc,) or Large rifle Magnum primers with those propellents? Also, will the rifle primers seat just below flush with the case head in 44 mag cases? Also, will the rifle primers make enough difference in pressure to warrant reducing the powder charge? Thanks.

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Sorry, I was thinking of small rifle and pistol primers which are the same dimensions. Large rifle primers are a bit taller and MAY NOT seat to flush with the case head. If fact rifle primers are required in some loads for the 357 Max. Standard rifle primers are hotter than even Magnum pistol primers so backing off the powder charge is a wise idea to start. If I were you I would try CCI 350 primers, which are supposed to be harder. I personaly don't like the Standard or Magnum statement on Winchester primers. To me they are one or the other and it is confusing to me and not noted in the manuals I have. Using rifle primers in the 44 Mag may or may not work for you - I guess depending on which components you are using. i know it has been done.

I used CCI Large Pistol primers before. I thought it would be simpler to stock one primer for std and mag loads. But, now I think I will go back to std and mag CCI primers. I will check out the seating depth of Rifle primers in Pistol cases, just to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks for your input.

I have loaded and shot a lot of H110 in 44. Always max loads. I use whatever magnum primer I have and never had a problem.

RJ556 said:

....... I will check out the seating depth of Rifle primers in Pistol cases, just to satisfy my curiosity. ......

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Rifle primers are the same diameter as pistol primers, but are "taller" and will stand proud of the case if seated in pistol brass. Not a good thing.

I am shooting 24.0gr of H-110 with 240gr XTP bullets and WLP primers without any problems. Have you looked at your firing pin? CCI, MagTech and Remington primers, especially the magnum primers, should have harder cups. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

Jimbo, it has nothing to do with the firing pin. The ruptures are at the edge of the primer cup, right in the groove formed by the primer cup and the primer pocket of the case. I will try to put up a photo, if the macro on my camera can get a pic of it. I will also post how much the charge was in those loads.

Do you do any prep of the primer pockets before loading? Wondering if the primer pocket might be too shallow or there may have been a burr or something. Primer may have been damaged while it was being seated. I always cut the primer pockets with a uniformer before loading the first time. I clean the pockets after each loading. Seems odd to only have a few ruptures and no other pressure signs with those or any of the other rounds.

Mike, I clean my primer pockets each and every time as well as check case length and trim if necessary for crimped loads on every case I reload. I have been hand loading for 45 years now but I know it is possible for anyone to make a mistake. In those 45 years, I've not seen this problem even with very high pressure rifle cartridges.

I am beginning to really think this is a QC issue. Primers have been in high demand some issues might get missed. I have reloaded quite a bit as well. I have never encountered a problem like this. You should be seeing other pressure signs along with blown primers. Pressure signs typically show up well before blown primers as well.

Another thing is H110 has been around alot and used extensively by loads and loads of handloaders. There is a ton of well tested load data I doubt there is a published load out there for H110 that will cause pressure problems. Really think something is goofy with the primers. Either something was changed or QC is slipping.

One final thought is your powder dispensing method. I doubt you weigh each charge. Assume you use some type of meter. Any chance it is possible not holding adjustment very well? Maybe it threw a touch extra powder to those cases. Again though why no other pressure signs? Don't think the brand of primer is a problem but maybe some of this particular batch.

There have been a couple of other threads about leaking primers recently.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=122822

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=122639

I have found when I clean the primer pockets real well the primers can be a little loose so when I do my case prep I tumble, check the flash holes and then prime without excessive cleaning of the primer pockets. Also some brass will start to show loose pockets after a few heavy loads so watch the number of heavy loads you shoot with your brass. I make it a rule to only shoot 4 max loads with my Federal or Winchester brass. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

That's good advise Jimbo. In my particular case, The gas didn't leak "around" the circumfrence of the primer/case junction, but the rupture was at the 90 degree edge of the cup where it is formed and the side of the cup. Tonight when I am at work and have more time (great job! ) I will post a photo of the cases and you will better be able to see where the rupture is on the cases. I will look at the threads that you posted. Thanks.

OK, this is the best picture I could get of the cases. It is a close as I could get and keep the camera in any kind of focus, but if you look close, you can see the small ruptures. Two of these cases were loaded with 23.5 grains of H-110 over a 240 grain Hornady XTP bullet. Hodgdons website shows 23.0 to 24.0 grains of H-110 as a correct charge. The other case was loaded with 28.5 grains of H-11o over a 180 grain Hornady XTP bullet. The Hodgdon site shows 29.0 to 31.5 grains of H-110 as the proper charge. I hav a couple of reloading manuals that show 28.0 grains as the low end for H-110 using a 180 grain jacketed bullet. I don't see where the amount of the propellent charge I used would cause primer ruptures.

The loads you are talking about are what I shoot all the time. Looking at the failure point on the drawn corner of the primer cup, I'd say there may be a metalurgy issue with the batch of metal used to blank the primer cups.

Sugget you call the manufacturer and give them the lot numbers, and tell them the problem.

Be interesting to see what they have to say.

SteelShooter said:

The loads you are talking about are what I shoot all the time. Looking at the failure point on the drawn corner of the primer cup, I'd say there may be a metalurgy issue with the batch of metal used to blank the primer cups.

Sugget you call the manufacturer and give them the lot numbers, and tell them the problem.

Be interesting to see what they have to say.

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+1 Definitely looks like bad batch of primers. Thanks for posting the photos. Everybody should be on the lookout for bad WLP primers if purchased recently. 8) 8)

...Jimbo