Real world reliability of the AR-556?

[DGW1949]

I've never personally fired one that would reliably empty a 30-Rd mag, time after time. Far as that goes, almost every stoppage that I've witnessed at a range or during various rifle competitions have involved an AR of some kind. I hear-tell that they are much better these days than they used to be....but....Me personally, I ain't betting my life on one of the things no matter how many shots it might can put inside a dime-sized circle while propped up on a bench.....

.....just sayin'.

DGW

 

[krw]

I've never personally fired one that would reliably empty a 30-Rd mag, time after time. Far as that goes, almost every stoppage that I've witnessed at a range or during various rifle competitions have involved an AR of some kind. I hear-tell that they are much better these days than they used to be....but....Me personally, I ain't betting my life on one of the things no matter how many shots it might can put inside a dime-sized circle while propped up on a bench.....

.....just sayin'.

DGW

Man!!, You hav had shi**y experience's with an AR. You need to be around a good AR with good mags and good ammo. They will run like a Singer sewing machine. There are LOTS of difference's when you vaguely use the term AR15. For the price point, I like Rock Rivers. But LMT, KAC, LWRC,DD,HK are the Cat's meow of the AR workd. But the HK MR556 tears up $3k, and they use propietary mags. Which is why I dont have one

 

[WAYNO]

Okay. There are no clear winners in AR debates.

I truly think the Ruger and other low-end AR's will perform fine, in a mall ninja atmosphere, at the range, and in the varmint fields, where abuse is minimal, and cleanliness, maintenance, and lubrication are optimal.

I have multiple Ordnance MOS's, including small arms repair. Our AR's were the least trustworthy and most fragile of all the weapons I repaired regularly. Very few of the AR's issued to me could be trusted.

That all said, right now I own just two AR's, a Bushmaster and a Colt. I've never had a failure of any kind with the Colt, and after a return to the factory of my Bushmaster, it is also now flawless in operation. But again, neither of these guns have been abused, and I do not shoot them at the rate I might have shot them in the military.

 

[Mobuck]

As I said, 'cleanliness and maintenance' of my AR platform firearms is somewhere between minimal and non-existent. Most of the ones hosting mufflers are piston drive but not all. Yeah, those get dirty but used as hunting guns, not to the point of failure. Things like 'mag dumps' and other foolish(just my opinion) shenanigans are not in my use parameters. I don't do 'battle rattle' stuff but these rifles are expected to function as needed.
That said, I let the Grandkids each pick a new, untested upper from the rack last year. One of those seems to be suffering from some malady of the system. During initial zeroing, there were several fail to functions related to inadequate gassing. Eyeballing gas block alignment can fail so I used a dimpling jig to get positive alignment. Still not working-short stroking. I have no idea what sort of buffer/spring they used and this may be part of the problem but w/o doing a complete diagnostic run, I can't be sure of the problem. It could be an undersized gas port or a problem with manufacturing debris in the gas port it's self.
A well tuned AR is as reliable as any other direct impingement design when assembled properly. I'm not going to argue the capabilities but I've heard some 'stories' about the typical military maintenance in which several troopies stripped their rifles dumping all the parts into a bucket of diesel fuel to soak and then re-assembling with whatever part they picked out of the bucket.

 

[davevabch]

I have found they do not run well without ammo.
My favorite supplier down to this.

 

[davevabch]

I have found they do not run well without ammo. My favorite supplier down to this.

 

[Sam Summey]

Mobuck, just out of curiosity, your AR's, are they ever required to fire magazine after magazine in rapid succession? Have you ever had to use one to defend yourself and others against a determined enemy?
This is what the system was supposed to do. It's failed miserably from my experience.
For shooting little nonaggressive critters or inanimate targets where the only threat is embarrassment from failures the rifles are fine.

I have been using an AR-15 in Service Rifle Matches since 2003, typically I fire ~90 rounds per local match. A typical match requires both slow fire and rapid fire usually in 20 round strings requiring one reload. In the last 20 years I have experienced one broken extractor (expensive Les Baer Match Rifle) and a case head separation. I have observed one broken extractor, and multiple plastic "wonder mag" failures and numerous case head separations. I have been using Brownell's 20 round magazines mostly and in the early years rebuilt Vietnam era magazines with no magazine failures to feed. I don't always clean my rifle after every match and have cleaned my rifle while shooting the National Championship at Camp Perry Ohio every other match. Usually these matches are 30-50 rounds.

I spent one year stationed at Camp Holloway in Vietnam about 25 miles from the Cambodian Border in the II Corps. During that year I was subjected to numerous mortar and rocket attacks and one ground attack. I kept my rifle clean inside and out and the bolt carrier well lubed. I did not coat the rifle inside out liberally with LSA oil as recommended by the Basic Training DIs. Excessive lube is a "dirt magnet". Carbon was softened by soaking the bore with LSA and scrubbing with a bore brush. I must say the military did not give the GI the proper tools to clean the inside of the bolt carrier and he was expected to do so using the firing pin. What was needed was a brass carbon scraper to scrape the carbon build up in the area where the gas tube dumped the gases into the chamber end of the bolt carrier where the tail end of the bolt is impinged by the gases. That saying, my rifle never failed to work. I never found a need to fire my rifle on automatic and I am sure those that did needed to perform a more intensive and rigorous cleaning of the inside of the bolt carrier to keep the rifle functioning reliably.

I have heard many accolades showered on the reliability of the M14 but I have also observed, in Service Rifle Competition, as many failures to function of the firearm due to dirty gas systems to the point of a frozen gas piston. If you lock the bolt back and dip the muzzle up and down and don't hear the piston "clicking" it needs cleaning.

Thus endeth the sermon of the day!

 

[Mobuck]

"Mobuck, just out of curiosity, your AR's, are they ever required to fire magazine after magazine in rapid succession? Have you ever had to use one to defend yourself and others against a determined enemy?
This is what the system was supposed to do. It's failed miserably from my experience.
For shooting little nonaggressive critters or inanimate targets where the only threat is embarrassment from failures the rifles are fine."

1st question: Nope, I used a bolt rifle as an offensive weapon supplemented by 'any other backup I chose' (often a Swedish 'K') as a defensive weapon.
2nd comment: I've heard many of the horror stories related to early AR15 failures. IMHO, many/most of those were related to the cleaning issues and such related to the earlier issued AR's. My SIL did 2 tours in the sandbox and his observations were that properly maintained M-4's functioned quite well in that environment.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Steel-cased ammo will not hurt any gun. Just make sure and clean the barrel and chamber well before going back to brass. The lacquer coating is the problem. I'm not really sure why the brand matters that much to reliability. Any decent AR should run like a top in nearly any situation. The only similar gun more simple and reliable is an AK platform. I don't have a Ruger AR because I am not enough of a loyalist to pay the premium. Mine are home and purpose built.

 

[beentheredone]

The AR -- so unreliable that the type has been our military's main issue weapon for 60 years...

 

[Sam Summey]

I have been using an AR-15 in Service Rifle Matches since 2003, typically I fire ~90 rounds per local match. A typical match requires both slow fire and rapid fire usually in 20 round strings requiring one reload. In the last 20 years I have experienced one broken extractor (expensive Les Baer Match Rifle) and a case head separation. I have observed one broken extractor, and multiple plastic "wonder mag" failures and numerous case head separations. I have been using Brownell's 20 round magazines mostly and in the early years rebuilt Vietnam era magazines with no magazine failures to feed. I don't always clean my rifle after every match and have cleaned my rifle while shooting the National Championship at Camp Perry Ohio every other match. Usually these matches are 30-50 rounds.

Oh! I forgot to mention I am on my third barrel. By most folks standards, the barrels I have replaced, were not worn out. The barrels were replaced because of excessive throat erosion. Typically, 10 ring accuracy starts to fade at about 4000 rounds. The rifle I shoot has evolved into a hybrid, it started out as a Colt "Matchmaster" with the briefcase handle on the upper. Then after 1-4.5x25mm scopes were allowed I changed the upper to a flat top M4 configuration using a PSA upper. Right off the bat, I replaced the trigger with a single stage JP Enterprise because I prefer a single stage. I have a backup rifle utilizing a PSA lower with a Rock River two stage match trigger and utilize the "Matchmaster" upper I think that one has a barrel on it that has about 800 rounds through it. The barrels I have are Wilsons that I get from White Oak Armory.

 

[RugerForMe]

My AR556 runs like clockwork. My issues have been running it to dry or that one sucky mag I have that I really need to mark for a rebuild or toss it out.

 

[Jeepnik]

The AR -- so unreliable that the type has been our military's main issue weapon for 60 years...

With continuous modifications to correct ongoing reliability and performance issues.

I replaced a failed M-16 with and M-14. My eldest did the same in Afghanistan due to the M-4's poor longer range effectiveness.

Of course both kids also "found" 1911A1's to replace their issued 9mm's. Seems they were listening when their old man spoke of the poor performance of the caliber.

 

[DGW1949]

The AR -- so unreliable that the type has been our military's main issue weapon for 60 years...

And with about 50 changes during that time frame aimed at fixing various shortcomings, including those brought on by some of the changes themselves....And since we're reaching back over 60 years, as I recall, the original was so bad that it became the subject of a special Congressional inquiry as to why it was getting so many of our soldiers killed. Of course, much of that got blamed on the lube being used, or no lube, or ammo loaded with the wrong powder, faulty mag-follower designs (lots of those came and went), or whatever else could be thought up to divert attention away from the basic problem(s) of the gun itself....namely that it's main selling point was that the design would cut cost and shoot cheap ammo. Reliability under harsh conditions really didn't seem to be much of a consideration as far as I could ever tell. Otherwise it wouldn't yugo where it ate, eh?

.....Just sayin'.

DGW

 

[Mobuck]

" My eldest did the same in Afghanistan due to the M-4's poor longer range effectiveness."
That is less of a design/platform failure and more of a failure of the cartridge coupled with the 'convenience' of the M-4's short barrel.

 

[beentheredone]

Interesting to me that those who recall the early problems with the AR overlook the fact that most of them were caused by Army policy and not the design. They specified the wrong powder for the ammo and decided the gun never needed cleaning - something never claimed by Stoner - and therefore issued them with no cleaning kits...

Anyone who's served knows that no organization can take a good idea and ruin it like the military.

 

[any ruger]

And everyone bitches about the mini saying ar is better.

 

[DGW1949]

And everyone bitches about the mini saying ar is better.

No....not everyone.

DGW

 

[peachhead]

What is the point of this thread?
If you don't like the AR then don't buy one.

 

[Wvfarrier]

And everyone bitches about the mini saying ar is better.

I have never found a mini that was as accurate as an AR.